Reversible reduction in brain myelin content upon marathon running, 2025, Ramos-Cabrer et al.

Discussion in 'Other health news and research' started by SNT Gatchaman, Mar 24, 2025.

  1. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights) Staff Member

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    Reversible reduction in brain myelin content upon marathon running
    Ramos-Cabrer, Pedro; Cabrera-Zubizarreta, Alberto; Padro, Daniel; Matute-González, Mario; Rodríguez-Antigüedad, Alfredo; Matute, Carlos

    Here we use magnetic resonance imaging to study the impact of marathon running on brain structure in humans.

    We show that the signal for myelin water fraction—a surrogate of myelin content—is substantially reduced upon marathon running in specific brain regions involved in motor coordination and sensory and emotional integration, but recovers within two months.

    These findings suggest that brain myelin content is temporarily and reversibly diminished by severe exercise, a finding consistent with recent evidence from rodent studies that suggest that myelin lipids may act as glial energy reserves in extreme metabolic conditions.

    Link | PDF (Nature Metabolism) [Open Access]
     
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  2. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    That's interesting.

    They consider the possibility that dehydration is causing the change in MWF, but they seem confident that it isn't. They mention some other possible reasons for what they are seeing (see below), but still think myelin loss is what is happening.

    Could that possibly be what is happening with us? Perhaps somehow certain parts of the brain don't get enough glucose after sustained exertion, and so start using the myelin lipids.

    I've seen a marathon runner losing coordination towards the end. I've thought before that it looks a bit like ME/CFS. When I have walked for too long, my coordination goes and movement requires focussed thinking.

    At the beginning of my illness, a doctor could not find my knee reflexes despite spending a lot of time looking for them. 6 months later, another doctor found them.

    If it was relevant to ME/CFS, it would be downstream of an inability to supply the brain with enough glucose under conditions of mild exertion. Do we have any evidence to support that idea? Could it be some impairment of the TCA cycle arising from a response to an infection (i.e. the itaconate shunt idea?)

    But then:
    Why hasn't demyelination been seen on brain imaging? (Or perhaps something has been reported?) I guess if the effect is temporary, that makes it harder to find.
    I can't recall what has been found with EMG studies of muscle - was the problem with brain signals?

    Would it be worth using this technique in a study in an ME/CFS cohort - pre and post exercise?
     
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  3. bobbler

    bobbler Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    on a slight sidenote for humour-ish that isn't a total side note I caught some video reels on Jamie from Made in CHelsea fame doing his ultra-marathon, which are taken later in when he is feeling the effects but having to keep going and thought at the time that I very much related somehow human-to-human in a way it is sort of harder to relate to well people now (I can't remember what it feels like to do anything without it being pushing past something that is actually going on symptom-wise and probably trying not to let it interfere in my performance too much, or having to sit in a certain way and so on). But it might just have been his gingerly gait as the muscle pain clearly built up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2025
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  4. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights) Staff Member

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    MR imaging of demyelination developed as an assessment of MS (there are other demyelinating conditions, also dysmyelination as a developmental disorder in young children). Demyelinating lesions in that context are discrete and reasonably large. When you see something like "small T2 hyperintensities" we don't know what they are and the differential includes a small focus of demyelination. Here we're talking about a much more diffuse process: larger in area but much smaller in amplitude.

    Myelin water fraction imaging is a proxy for myelin content: essentially trying to measure the water contained within the onion skins of the oligodendrocyte-derived myelin sheaths.

    Using myelin water imaging to link underlying pathology to clinical function in multiple sclerosis: A scoping review (2022, Multiple Sclerosis and Related Disorders)

    So You Want to Image Myelin Using MRI: An Overview and Practical Guide for Myelin Water Imaging (2021, Journal of Magnetic Resonance Imaging)

    Magnetic Resonance of Myelin Water: An in vivo Marker for Myelin (2016, Brain Plasticity)

    I don't think this particular technique has been used for investigation in ME/CFS. See also this 2023 thread on a preprint, subsequently published —

    REUSED: A deep neural network method for rapid whole-brain high-resolution myelin water fraction mapping from extremely under-sampled MRI (2023, Computerized Medical Imaging and Graphics)
     
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  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the information and the link to the forum thread SNT.

    So, that's sounding pretty interesting as a technique to apply to ME/CFS then?
     
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  6. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights) Staff Member

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    Yes. (Also FND).

    Also remember Ron Davis was suggesting demyelination in Catalytic Antibodies May Contribute to Demyelination in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (2023, Biochemistry)

    There they were proposing a different cause for demyelination: abzymes / catalytic antibodies. I see I commented at the time —

    More diffusely but at much smaller scale, this might be a mechanism though, as summarised by Hutan. (I'll have to look to see if anyone's used this technique in FND already.)

     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2025
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  7. EndME

    EndME Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I suppose a problem with the analogy/comparison would be that there's a handful of people that run marathons on an almost daily basis (at least for shorter time periods) and that don't experience any symptoms of ME/CFS. So if the same things were happening in ME/CFS it doesn't seem to be happening upon repetition in such healthy people. There isn't much information on the athletes, so it may be hard to know whether a marathon is something they do regularly or not and it's of course possible that these events don't repeat themselves in people that run marathons regularly.
     
  8. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Could it instead be related to the exertion relative to their physical capabilities? And especially repeated over-exertion?

    I don’t know much about overtraining syndrome, but I’ve heard some claim that it’s quite similar to ME/CFS.
     
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  9. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights) Staff Member

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    The ability to dip into myelin lipid stores as an emergency fuel may have been an evolutionary advantage, allowing our predecessors to cross greater distances and establish new homes (with water, fish etc). So this might be perfectly OK for healthy people with normal (or indeed trained) metabolism.

    But what if you're not healthy and metabolism is impaired and you're forced to use more of these structural reserves under what would be normal circumstances? Or there's a group with a genetic flaw that overdoes this process or doesn't recover it swiftly (over 2 months)? They may go beyond subclinical/trivial effects and then show clear impairments of brain functioning.

    What if the genes that control this are supposed to ensure it's uniform, but instead it's irregular along neurons and white matter tracts? Then instead of a generalised (let's call it whole-of-brain) slowing of conduction velocities (and therefore brain fog), you might have stochastic / non-deterministic transmission of action potentials (think impaired motor control or non-epileptogenic seizures in FND).

    The conventional wisdom is the brain is the one organ without internal fuel reserves, it needs a constant supply of metabolites, oxygen and clearance of metabolic waste or neurons die, quickly. But this suggests that isn't completely true and for a longer scale of more extreme exertion, there is an emergency fuel source that can help - at the potential cost of structural integrity. Remember also, it's been said that metabolically we look like we've run a marathon. This could be an explanation for physical and cognitive-induced PEM.

    Why are some of us significantly physically disabled with all the other features of ME/CFS, but not have significant cognitive dysfunction? Do we have better genes that allow for this or do we not have those genes at all? So when we overdo it or have baseline deterioration we're just generally/systemically "cooked" and poorly functioning but still able to think? The descriptions from those severely affected (I think Physics Girl described this) are that they have to simply stop thinking and lie as quietly as possible to avoid worsening. That just thinking makes them worse. Or for those without brain fog, if we do have the same genes, did we lay down more or "better" myelin in infancy (perhaps with fewer early life infections) and maintain that in adulthood, so we can tolerate using myelin lipids temporarily without becoming cognitively symptomatic?
     
  10. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I’ve had this for a few months. It coincided with very little sleep, but I believe the worsening came a few weeks before the most severe part of the sleep issues.

    Nowadays, my head wears out during the day and somewhat resets if I get enough sleep.
    I have a history of getting far too little sleep before I got ME/CFS. Of sleep is as important for brain health as I think it is, my long term lack of sleep might have made me more receptive to brain fog issues?
     
  11. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Also, this phenomenon doesn't necessarily have to explain PEM, or at least PEM in its entirety. If this is downstream of an inability to use sufficient glucose/operate aerobic respiration on demand, then there are other things upstream and downstream of that might cause PEM.

    I note that people who do train physically very hard for extended periods of time do sometimes get something like ME/CFS (over-training syndrome). But, if we were getting this temporary demyelination, why would some people not eventually get enough damage that it becomes permanent demyelination? (Although I know of one person diagnosed with ME/CFS for years who was eventually diagnosed with MS.).

    What the idea could maybe do is explain why we seem to temporarily lose good muscle control or cognitive performance after repeated exertion. And yes, as SNT says, perhaps it could explain what is going on with some people diagnosed with FND.

    I'm not sure that it all hangs together. But it's intriguing, and it's the sort of thing that could fairly easily and quickly be checked as either something that seems to be a thing or not in a specific patient group.
     
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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  13. Murph

    Murph Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is a fascinating hypothesis.

    Are there other types of tissue that serve as reserve energy?

    As I understand we use up phosphocreatine, and glycogen, then the body tries to burn fat. But perhaps other things are being burnt too and they're meant to be used only in crisis? Muscle is one idea. You also hear about anorexic bodies eating their own organs.

    Could we identify a list and then quantify them before and after exercise? Or before and after PEM? One idea i've always pondered is whether i lose muscle especially quickly in PEM, sure feels like it.
     
  14. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    The liver stores carbs as glycogen which can be broken back to glucose when needed, as I understand it with a continual flow of surplus glucose from blood to liver stores and back again as needed. And there is fat stored all over the body.
     
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  15. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My very limited knowledge on this topic tells me that the mitochondria will consume pretty much anything you give it if it has to. That might be completely wrong?
     
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  16. Turtle

    Turtle Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I like your idea of making a list, but I can't help with that, sorry.

    I think I "eat" my muscles. I was painfully reminded of that yesterday and today after having walked for longer than I should have the day before.
    I'm in "repair" mode now. I ate chicken for dinner, added salt, onion, leek and carrot, with brown rice. Repair food.

    Maybe the PEM-cravings several members have mentioned are an indication too.
    (Extreme) thirst, sugary things, and potato(chips): fluids, carbs, potassium and salt?
     
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  17. EndME

    EndME Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But how would you check this? The main analysis in the study is a "pre", "post" and "recovery" analysis following a marathon which is hopefully (for the sake of the study) a very particular event in these peoples lives. How would that work in ME/CFS? We have people mentioning that they were more exhausted getting to the venue for the CPET than during and maybe they'll have to go through more efforts afterwards for additional appointments, that establishing "pre", "post" and "recovery" baselines as done here might not be as easily possible in ME/CFS. The authors report that the results are relatively consistent which could mean that it would be sufficient to just look at snapshots "sometime after a marathon" vs people who didn't run a marathon at all, but without any controls that seems rather speculative and of course it would raise the question why have group differences in ME/CFS vs controls not appeared consistently in other studies? @SNT Gatchaman do you think this could be feasible used to display group differences without any references to "before" and "after" exercise?

    Something else would be, most people train for a marathon, that means in the weeks before the marathon they will be running a half-marathon or similar. Possibly even more. So why should the situation "later" be comparable to the situation "pre"-marathon? Would one not just as likely expect the situation "pre"-marathon to be more similar to "post"-marathon rather than being comparable to "recovery"? It seems like the authors did not mention controlling for training load before the marathon or after the marathon, which seems rather strange? Perhaps they did it but without explictily mentioning it. Would one not want to know whether the people had already run a marathon just beforehand or shortly afterwards? That does seem rather unusual especially because the cohort was recruited over such a long time period over many different cities, which would indicate that the authors were being selective, hopefully in a way that diminished training effects.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2025
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  18. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    We've talked before how researchers need to pay more attention to non-CPET exertion during PEM studies.

    It might be that participants need to live close to the testing facility (or there is a mobile testing facility) or the participants go into a residential facility for a week before and after the test.

    And there needs to be much clearer instructions about non-CPET activity and monitoring of activity with wearables.

    That's an interesting point about the pre-marathon exertion levels. It might be a question for the authors.
     
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  19. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights) Staff Member

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    This process would be just "borrowing" some lipid from the myelin sheath. MS leads to a loss of the oligodendrocytes that produce and maintain the myelin.

    Dynamics of oligodendrocyte generation in multiple sclerosis (2019, Nature)

    Remyelination by surviving oligodendrocytes is inefficient in the inflamed mammalian cortex (2023, Neuron)
     
  20. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Googling, it seems that light sensitivity is common in MS. It is thought that demyelination affects the function of the optic nerve, making the signals go haywire. I wonder if light sensitivity in ME/CFS is due to a more diffuse degradation of the myelin sheath?

    Same thing with MS and sound sensitivity. There can be hyperacusis, but also pain in response to sound.
     
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