Hypothesis A global neuronal workspace model of functional neurological disorders 2024 Naccache and Munoz-Musat

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, May 21, 2024.

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  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Abstract

    We introduce here a general model of Functional Neurological Disorders based on the following hypothesis: a Functional Neurological Disorder could correspond to a consciously initiated voluntary top-down process causing involuntary lasting consequences that are consciously experienced and subjectively interpreted by the patient as involuntary. We develop this central hypothesis according to Global Neuronal Workspace theory of consciousness, that is particularly suited to describe interactions between conscious and non-conscious cognitive processes. We then present a list of predictions defining a research program aimed at empirically testing their validity. Finally, this general model leads us to reinterpret the long-debated links between hypnotic suggestion and functional neurological disorders. Driven by both scientific and therapeutic goals, this theoretical paper aims at bringing closer the psychiatric and neurological worlds of functional neurological disorders with the latest developments of cognitive neuroscience of consciousness.

    Open access, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19585969.2024.2340131
     
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  2. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    so now they’re saying people are hypnotising themselves………
     
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  3. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I tried to skim this and I just can't make it. It's just self-important rambling.
     
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  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not just self-important rambling, but global neuronal working space self-important rambling.
    You need to get the full nuance!
    And bad science while we're about it.
     
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  6. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
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  7. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :laugh::wtf::laugh:
     
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  8. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I've read a bit. Enough for one evening.

    The inclusion of the words 'could' and 'may' pop up frequently.

    Yup their clever clogs ideas could or may be useful/meaningful etc. But on the other hand, it could just be a load of unfalsifyable mumbo jumbo nonsense. The unease that clinicians can experience as evidence of somesuch made me laugh out loud :laugh:

    Have a pleasant evening.
     
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  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    If people with FND are actually achieving something with their self-hypnosis, then, as far as I can see, they are doing better than hypnosis practitioners.

    e.g. this post refers to the Cochrane Review that found that hypnosis was of no use in getting people to stop smoking.
    Hypnosis and hypnotherapy (also Rapid Transformational Therapy)
    Which seems pretty poor, given that the people going to a hypnotist to stop smoking clearly want to stop smoking and believe hypnosis can help.
     
  10. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Good point.
     
  11. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    So, they are still acknowledging that they can't fix these patients. Perhaps that is useful to remember for advocacy.

    All that is to make a point that I think is valid - of course function is a result of structure at some level. So they are accusing people naming this supposed clinical category of dualism. Also a point that might come in handy.

    So far, surprisingly so good.

    Interesting points. It's possible that 'functional' is supposed to be reassuring to the patient. I don't think it arose out of a 'diagnostic humility' though - in fact, I think the real reason is quite the opposite. I think it came to be out of diagnostic hubris. If no physical cause is identified, the clinician assumes there can't possibly be one and that the patient just thinks they are not well. That suggests that FNDs should be able to be fixed by better thinking, but it's been an ongoing frustration that efforts to achieve that have failed.
     
  12. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    our understanding of their mechanisms is still very limited, as well as our therapeutic efficacy for the affected patients

    If they still have not demonstrated adequate, reliable, and safe efficacy under strict research conditions, then they cannot be claiming effectiveness at the practical clinical, and policy and medico-legal advice levels.

    Yet they are rolling out implementation at those levels as fast as they can.

    Exactly as happened with the GET/CBT rehab model for ME/CFS.
     
  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that excerpt is worth reading. The authors are grappling with the question of whether an FND is voluntary or not. These conditions exist, in the clinicians' minds I think, in some half-way house between pretending and a mental illness. I think that last description in the excerpt of an 'uncanny mixed feeling of voluntary/involuntary symptoms' is quite revealing and demonstrates the major role that prejudice could play in the ready assignment of an FND label to a patient.

    The authors say that their hypothesis allows both voluntary and involuntary aspects of FND to be true.

    That last quote seems to agree with the reason I suggested for the 'functional' label. Essentially the FND patient can be blamed for their initial, voluntary poor thinking, while excusing the clinician for not being able to fix the involuntary consequences by helping their patient think better.
     
  14. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Having seen thousands of people discussing being told they have FND over the years, a small fraction of which was definitely positive, I say, with all due respect: Horse. Shit.

    They can pretend if it makes them sleep better at night but the only way to know this is to ask and they don't want to know otherwise so they almost never ask, and the few studies of this tell exactly the opposite.

    So, absolutely not it's not supposed to be reassuring to patients.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2024
  15. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    For what it's worth, there was a recent discussion on the LC sub-reddit over someone being told by two MDs that LC was psychosomatic that it was explained to them that psychosomatic means that their central nervous system is malfunctioning, which of course is a complete bullshit explanation that obviously the clinician doesn't even believe. So things are sort of morphing into something like this.

    There were several comment saying they were told something like this. The profession is trying to bridge facing mounting evidence that the whole concept is BS but simply cannot face the truth, while at the same time we are seeing a push to expand further than ever before, driven largely by neurologists, while most in the specialty don't even want to see those patients.

    Honestly it's easy to see why we are so easy to dismiss. When you explain plainly and clearly all of this is all sounds so completely insane that no, well, sane person could ever accept this, continue to play along. And yet here we are. This has been a tradition for well over a century. Hundreds of millions of people, probably north of a billion to a lesser degree, have been subjected to this ideology, with real-life clinical decisions affecting, and in the case of tens of millions at least, ruining our lives.

    As a scandal it rivals, and with time will outdo, what the tobacco companies did. Accounting for doing it knowingly, it probably already does. And it all feels like nothing. It's just words, for the most part. Words from people in a position of authority in a context in which failure to act is harmful.

    I really fear that even with mounting overwhelming evidence, it will take a while to break this. It's too much, no one wants to take responsibility and it's all so much worse in that it's all rapidly expanding, and it's already more influential and widespread than ever before. It's by far the worst failure of expertise in human history, so much that it probably outdoes them all, combined. Like how Jupiter is 2.5x more massive than all the planets combined. It's so big that it can't be accepted.
     
  16. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, of course 'supposed to be reassuring' and 'actually being reassuring' are two quite different things. It's a bit like a doctor saying 'Good news! All the tests came back clear!' - some doctors probably genuinely think that is good news. Of course, it is not, as you still have no explanation for feeling rubbish.
     
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