Incongruence in FND: time for retirement 2024 Stone

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, Jan 13, 2024.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    [Don't get your hopes up, this is not Stone's announcement of his retirement]

    The diagnosis of functional neurological disorder (FND) has rested traditionally on two key features: inconsistency and incongruency.

    Inconsistency usually refers to inconsistency between movement, sensory or cognitive performance in a voluntary versus an ‘automatic’ scenario. This is the principle of Hoover’s sign of functional leg weakness, the tremor entrainment test for functional tremor and a range of cognitive tests in functional cognitive disorder. It is often helpful to share these tests with patients as they show the potential for improvement, give an insight into the ‘software’ mechanism of FND in the brain and also feed into a range of FND-specific therapies. For example, a physiotherapist might actively use distraction to promote automatic movement and discourage overlearned abnormal patterns of voluntary movement.

    Incongruency, on the other hand, refers to a clinical feature that is not present in other superficially similar neurological conditions, or that apparently violates laws of anatomy, biology or physics. I have always struggled with incongruency in FND but now am breaking my silence, assisted by the intriguing case of a patient with ‘functional freezing of gait’ from Jorik Nonnekes and colleagues in this issue of Practical Neurology.1

    The patient described in the paper and accompanying video has a functional gait disorder. But is it reasonable, as the authors suggest, to make that diagnosis, in part, because it does not look like another disorder, principally Parkinsonism, with which we are more familiar?

    In my view, incongruence needs retirement. It should be sent to the FND section of the neuromythology graveyard where it can join ‘la belle indifférence’,2 ‘non-organic’3 and the universal application of ‘conversion disorder’.4 Here is what I object to, and find incongruent, about this sign still being used in the clinical assessment of FND (box 1).

    Paywall, https://pn.bmj.com/content/early/2024/01/11/pn-2023-003897
     
  2. Sid

    Sid Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Very surprising to see these statements exhibiting humility from Stone. Encouraging development.
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Meh. He is still clinging just as tightly onto the whole FND project.

    I don't see much practical distinction between incongruency and inconsistency. The comments he makes on the problems with incongruency could be applied to inconsistency too.
     
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  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I guess that semetary is brought to us by Stephen King, because the corpses of those ideas are shambling around and although they may suffer from the odd gait disorder, are very much indistinguishable from alive and kicking.

    This is the stuff that makes what sounds like a bit of a breakthrough entirely forgettable. Because these people never give up on their myths, they just describe them differently. Same as it ever was. They are zombie beliefs, impossible to kill. FFS the 'non-organic' stuff is still the main excuse they still use, and there he pretends that the idea is dead. Usual nonsense from people who can't tell the difference between reality and the thoughts in their heads.
     
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  5. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Once upon a time neurology was absolutely sure that the reports from MS patients about monocular diplopia (double images in one eye) were impossible (inconsistent with the laws of physics, to use Stone's phrase in this paper), and indeed evidence of some form of psychopathology. Until it wasn't, and is now a completely accepted phenomenon.

    Yet Stone seems untroubled by asserting that reports of tunnel vision issues in FND are inconsistent with the laws of physics.

    There is certainly inconsistency here. Just not in patients reports of their experience. It lies in the interpretations into which the experts are trying to shoehorn those stubborn facts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2024
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  6. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He's updated that idea in this paper —

     
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  7. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Unless his future actions and words prove otherwise, I assume that this is just more positioning to attempt to maintain FND concepts as relevant, rather than accepting that it is a waiting room for issues that currently science either can't explain or hasn't properly investigated. Even him thinking that is is OK to explain "why their symptom breaks the laws of physics" shows that he is absolutely fine deceiving patients, just so the explanation can be "satisfying".
     
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  8. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is how it seems to me.
     
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  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There is actually a clear difference and I think he is making a vlid point - but for the wrong motivation.

    Making a neurological diagnosis always involves gathering about 100 pieces of information and working out what consistent patterns emerge. If the left arm is weak and the left leg is weak and the visual field is blank on the left you have a right internal capsule bleed very likely. If position sense is lost in both feet and hands you likely have a dorsal column peripheral neuropathy but not if one foot is fine. If weakness in one leg is associated with an upping planter response the diagnostic possibilities are quite different from a downing response. And so on.

    Inconsistency of pattern is the backbone of all neurological diagnosis. You use it to narrow down a thousand possibilities to one. Hoover's test uses the same principle and has to be considered legitimate - as long as the clinician has genuinely covered all the evidence.

    But incongruity, in the sense of something unfamiliar, is not a legitimate reason to diagnose nothing wrong. However, it is a very common lazy habit of doctors to do so. Stone is quite right to point this out but 1. All doctors should know it anyway.
    And 2. He is using it to imply that FND is not incongruous but stereotypic and recognisable by positive sigs. He is at the same old game, but the distinction is very sound.
     
  10. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Good grief the pseudoscience is off the charts. The misuse of "not possible by the laws of physics" should never be acceptable, but they make it clear that they intend to keep on deceiving patients using sciency sounding fake explanations precisely because they sound more credible by misusing scientific language and concepts.

    In a way, they are perfecting pseudoscience, creating the Platonic ideal of what pseudoscience is all about, especially the very explicit intent to deceive.
     
  11. ToneAl

    ToneAl Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He is still clinging on to the predictive coding model even though it doesn't work as suggested. Fnd is a learner behaviour problem according to him but as knowledge of anatomy increases many of these problems may be biological but he doesn't want to admit it
     
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  12. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    To be fair, it's a great position to fall back on. Complete black box and unfalsifiable until the inner workings of the brain are solved. They can have several more years with that scam. Kind of "software", in a way, but it would take a full working model of a human brain to know better, since it's in the functional connectivity, way more complex than an anatomical map of the connections.

    It's an immoral position, but it is devilishly effective. Basically the last turtle in the turtles-all-the-way-down. It makes no sense at all, is of the "the splat on the ground is what caused the fall from high up", but that never stopped psychosomatic quackery before.
     
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  13. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Best bit about this is the second half of the title, sadly as @Andy pointed out at the start of post 1 it’s not what we would have actually hoped for.
     
  14. Gradzy

    Gradzy Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    After reading those points I can only think: how on earth has he only realised this now?

    He’s been working on FND for 20 years or so hasn’t he?

    These conclusions that he has supposedly finally arrived at are things that seemed entirely obvious to me as glaring weaknesses in the FND theory - and within weeks of first receiving that diagnosis!

    And I’m not a career neurologist with a medical degree. In fact, did badly at school and I received no further education beyond GCSE.

    What is going on with this guy, a highly educated and experienced medical professional, only just arriving at such obvious conclusions now?

    What is going on in this field? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills reading this stuff.
     
  15. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    I felt the same when I first started learning about the situation and history of it all more than 30 years ago, and it still feels the same today.

    It is a genuinely bizarre Kafkaesque situation that such obviously poor technical and ethical standards have been allowed to become so entrenched and normalised, and so resistant to change.

    There is nothing remotely sane or humane about any of this.
     
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