Interrelationships between symptom burden & health functioning & health care utilization among veterans w/persistent physical symptoms, 2020, Fried

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    Open access, https://bmcfampract.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12875-020-01193-y
     
  2. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    We really need data on the number of people with such as PPS who learn to avoid where possible any medical contact or to try to hide these symptoms or associated diagnoses when forced to interact with medical services.
     
  3. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh, goody, the latest edition of "sick people want medical care and that's unacceptable" is out. It's in the famous "if I don't believe in it it doesn't exist" series of Lacking object permanence magazine. It expresses surprise that the sicker the patients are, the more health care they utilize. They literally find that puzzling. It's as if they don't understand what symptoms mean or are, treating them as mere properties like hair color. Medical training has thoroughly failed those doctors, this is ridiculous.
    Literally the only thing those patients are looking for. And proper use of literally here. It is literally THE ONLY THING these patients are looking for and these people find that boring. Other than a cure, obviously, but precisely because that means all symptoms are gone. I read an old Wessely paper recently that made that same point, that when pwME go see doctors we're not actually there for symptom relief but for whatever stuff he imagines it to be.

    It's literally the only thing that matters, and these people have different opinions. This system simply cannot produce competent outcomes. There is complete detachment between supply and demand, between services offered and actual needs.
     
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  4. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    What sort of funding would a study of that nature take, and what idiots would provide it?
     
  5. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wonder if Klimas would comment on this paper
     
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  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Wonderful post @rvallee, I wish the authors could read it.

    I have argued that when doctors have no idea how to treat an illness they can still be useful - in helping to educate loved ones that the debility is real, or providing evidence for insurance claims, or signing an application for disabled parking, or collecting information that might contribute to a better understanding of the disease, or putting the person in touch with a peer support group. But I guess all those are things that might eventually contribute to some symptom relief.
     
  7. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    any paper that starts with the words between and then gives itself 40% leeway should just be thrown into the bin . how can this tripe be taken seriously if the writer is to lazy to even find another tripe paper whith erroneous figures to cite .
     
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  8. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    So it sounds as though they started with 790 soldiers at pre-deployment. Deployments were typically about a year long. Only 422 soldiers were available for post-deployment assessment at Phase 2 - 345 could not be located. Which sounds rather careless of the army - did they just lose them somewhere on deployment? This is the army - surely if they wanted the soldiers assessed, they could find most of them? This study was done at Phase 4 - 1 year after deployment. I didn't see the number of the soldiers used for this study specifically reported anywhere in the paper but adding up numbers in tables suggests that only 319 soldiers made it to Phase 4. So, there may have been bias in the sample.

    The study acknowledged the big attrition rate. But they say 'never mind, at baseline the soldiers who didn't make it to Phase 4 were no different to the ones who did. Which I would have thought was rather missing the point - it's differences in what happened to them while on deployment that is of most interest.
     
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Soldiers with a range of health issues at baseline were excluded from the study. So, young, fit, healthy and primarily male.

    So physical health and mental health assessed before and after deployment.

    Bearing in mind the standard deviations, there's a pretty significant decrease in health given these young people were very healthy at baseline and the measurements were done only about two years later. Of course, there's an effect of aging, but I doubt that you'd see that kind of decline in non-deployed people from age 27 to age 29. Adding in the attrition rate and any bias that might have caused, it's hardly an ad for being in the army. I doubt that that kind of mean health loss would be acceptable in most employment situations.

    :eek: I understand military deployment is not a walk in the park, but 'expecting a sizeable portion to develop clinically significant persistent physical symptoms' from a single one-year deployment! Perhaps you might expect that in top-level sport, but those people tend to get paid a whole lot more to put their body on the line than your typical young soldier. I wonder if the people who are expected to pay this price really know what they are signing up for.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    This is maybe the most important finding. Contrary to the researcher's expectations, it wasn't people with bad mental health that were turning up at the doctor's office most trying to get their symptoms fixed. It was the people with physical symptoms, yes, very clearly, but they were more likely to seek medical care if they had good mental health functioning.

    'Damn', you can hear the researchers saying between the lines. 'How can we say that we need to be giving these people mental health care rather than investigating their symptoms?' But fortunately, the sample is mostly male. That leaves half of the population that still might be shoehorned into a hypothesis.

    Yeah, females might still be choosing to have lots of doctors' appointments without a corresponding symptom burden - 'cos, I don't know, sitting in a waiting room and then being scoffed at by a doctor is the female idea of a good time?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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  11. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    So, the authors seemed to want to differentiate physical symptoms and physical health function, so that they could conclude that there's no need to investigate the cause of symptoms or treat symptoms, but rather concentrate on improving physical health function. Which is perhaps fine if the patient has an amputated leg - the cause may be less important; it is important to get the person walking again with a prosthetic. But it's not so great if the patient has fatigue and headaches - finding the cause may be very important to working out a suitable treatment. .....Unless of course you think CBT and hardening up is the answer to anything with no obvious physical cause.

    But the study found that symptom burden and physical health function were actually highly related. Who would have thought?

    That's the sort of attitude that feeds conspiracy theories. If you are a person who has suddenly become so sick that you are unable to work or enjoy the activities you used to enjoy, you deserve a decent and prompt diagnostic effort. If you don't get that decent diagnostic effort, you are likely to become fodder for all sorts of quackery. There doesn't need to be an either/or when it comes to diagnostic effort and focusing on restoring health function. A doctor can fill out a form for disabled parking to make shopping more manageable for their patient while still investigating a cause.

    I'm assuming the 'physical symptoms' here is a typo. Doctors find patients presenting with physical symptoms to be among the most challenging to treat? :laugh: What, because patients presenting without physical symptoms are super-easy - just write 'hypochondriac' in the notes and send them off for CBT - no thinking required?

    This study reeks of the data not supporting the hypothesis, but the authors pushing on heroically with their planned conclusion nonetheless.
     
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  12. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Probably meant persistent but this really, again, emphasizes how medicine is split between acute and chronic medicine. One has made enormous progress, the other has not made any improvement in perhaps the last century. If it wasn't for acute medicine being better at handling episodic acute problems that arise in some chronic diseases and technological progress elevating the floor of abject poverty coming as a consequence of chronic health problems, quality of life and life expectancy for people with disabling chronic illnesses would not have significantly improved. Medicine has been essentially a non-factor in improvements that came about as a result of the creation of basic social security and increased industrial outputs making basic goods affordable. The existence of the Internet alone has made far more to improve the mental health of the chronically ill than all the combined efforts from clinical psychology of the last century and it's not even close.

    And the main factor responsible for the complete stagnation of improvement in chronic health problems is the damn conversion disorder ideology, the fanatical belief in the power of psychology to be a significant factor in completely unrelated problems. Mainly because it has presented the patient population as pathologically delusional to a degree that excludes even entertaining the idea of engaging with this population, preferring instead to keep a patronizing system of one-sided shallow pedantic "here's what's actually wrong with you" that is as cruel as it is inflexible.

    And so-called evidence-based medicine has been the primary driver of this human rights disaster and technological stagnation. While serving no actual purposes in improving outcomes. Chronic medicine may just be the lowest, least effective, least reliable sub-field in all of science, the only technical sub-specialty to have actually regressed. And because there is no accountability in a system that exists in an isolated thought bubble, there is no desire for change, in fact all efforts seem to be motivated by doing more of what fails and even less of what could break this wall of mediocrity.

    In a nutshell: this is why we can't have nice things. Even though it benefits no one. I don't understand why people are OK with that. None of this is OK.
     
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