Persistent fatigue following SARS-CoV-2 infection is common and independent of severity of initial infection July 2020 Townsend et al

Discussion in 'Long Covid research' started by Sly Saint, Jul 31, 2020.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,922
    Location:
    UK
    Preprint
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.29.20164293v1
     
    leokitten, Hutan, merylg and 12 others like this.
  2. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    9,922
    Location:
    UK
    Uses Chalder fatigue scale.
    here we go again.
     
    Hutan, ladycatlover, ukxmrv and 15 others like this.
  3. Midnattsol

    Midnattsol Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,776
    Did they at least correct for the anxious/depression that would increase scores on the CFQ..?
     
    Hutan, ukxmrv, Michelle and 5 others like this.
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    55,414
    Location:
    UK
  5. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,792
  6. obeat

    obeat Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    698
    MEMarge and Trish like this.
  7. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,254
    Thanks for highlighting it to me. I think I will be cautious about criticising the researchers publicly at this stage given my work with the Irish ME/CFS Association and that we may wish to work with them at some stage (there has been very little biomedical ME/CFS research ever in the Republic of Ireland)
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
    Alton, Hutan, Kitty and 8 others like this.
  8. cassava7

    cassava7 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,051
  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    15,175
    Location:
    London, UK
    Many thanks for your very helpful feedback. Apologies if it seems as though we are proposing graded exercise for all; we mean to suggest a suite of interventions that will need to be individually tailored, rather than a blanket approach to all. Will clarify in published version.

    So how do they know how to tailor interventions? Without any trials? He says he may identify a group worthy of further study and early intervention so what is the suite he prepare earlier?

    Nul points I am afraid.
     
    Hutan, merylg, Joh and 19 others like this.
  10. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    55,414
    Location:
    UK
    They have replied to my tweet saying they are aware of the limitations of the CFQ, but don't know of any better measure of fatigue.

    Can someone suggest a better one for me to suggest to them, especially if they are using it for ongoing follow up of patients post treatment, as they need one that allows for worsening to show, and doesn't have the CFQ ceiling effect.
     
    Hutan, Kitty, Philipp and 10 others like this.
  11. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,424
    That fatigue is independent of infection severity seems unintuitive. Could this be due to inadequacies of the Chalder scale? Or is this a hint that fatigue is due to a somewhat different process than the infection, triggered by it but then continuing on its own?

    Anyway I'm troubled by the observation that GET and CBT are still seen as important treatment for fatigue, including the authors of this paper. There is no good reason to think they work any better than a placebo. I also don't like the eagerness of the authors to intervene early. They appear convinced that they know how to help patients and don't seem to consider the possibility that they could cause harm by acting without having any real understanding of the problem. Making patients jump through extra hoops with the intent of helping them recover could delay or prevent their recovery.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
    Alton, Saz94, Philipp and 11 others like this.
  12. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,792
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  13. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Australia
    Depression/Anxiety was based on prior diagnoses or use of antidepressant medication.

    The real problem is that caseness was based on the aforementioned crap questionnaire.

    Notably, 86.6% of "Fatigued" participants did not have any prior depression/anxiety diagnoses, so this a weak predictor at most.
     
    Hutan, Leila, Saz94 and 7 others like this.
  14. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,659
    Location:
    Canada
    Oh, come on. Be serious here or be gone.
     
  15. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,659
    Location:
    Canada
    There are many better tools than CFQ. None are great but this is a disappointing answer, it's pretty much the worst one. Is it really the job of patients to point out to researchers that there are other tools? Did they simply not look? Over the years from papers I have seen several in use that are much better. Ugh.

    Great replies everyone, though. But really using only one and the worst one of all? I repeat myself but: ugh.
     
    Alton, Saz94, Amw66 and 4 others like this.
  16. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,736
    There are a bunch. Checklist Individual Strength, maybe? Fatigue Severity Scale? Any are better than the CFQ, I think, though all have problems.
     
    Philipp, EzzieD, alktipping and 4 others like this.
  17. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,860
    Location:
    Australia
    I think they were already using the CFQ in their clinic and this is just a rushed study...
     
    MEMarge, Amw66, obeat and 1 other person like this.
  18. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    55,414
    Location:
    UK
    Oh dear. I think the next link to offer them is to Mark Vink's latest paper deconstructing Cochrane and focusing on return to work.
     
    Hutan, Saz94, Philipp and 15 others like this.
  19. cassava7

    cassava7 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,051
    Actually, they do cite the latter...
    Not sure they read it!
     
    Grigor, EzzieD, alktipping and 5 others like this.
  20. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    55,414
    Location:
    UK
    Philipp, Kitty, Saz94 and 15 others like this.

Share This Page