Review The vicious cycle of [FND]s: a synthesis of healthcare professionals’ views on working with patients, 2020, Barnett, Tyson et al

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Andy, Sep 25, 2020.

Tags:
  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

    Messages:
    23,025
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Full title: The vicious cycle of functional neurological disorders: a synthesis of healthcare professionals’ views on working with patients with functional neurological disorder
    Paywall, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09638288.2020.1822935
    Sci hub, https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/09638288.2020.1822935
     
    Maat, Midnattsol, Louie41 and 10 others like this.
  2. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Australia
    Oh boy. :banghead:

    All this tsunami of toxic crap is just because they simply can't say 'we don't know'.

    Ludicrous fairy tales to paper over the chasms in the profession's actual knowledge and competence are no answer to anything.
     
    Amw66, Holinger, Maat and 24 others like this.
  3. MSEsperanza

    MSEsperanza Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,947
    Location:
    betwixt and between
    • Implications for rehabilitation
    • Evidence-based or, at the very least, consensus-based multi-disciplinary care pathways for the assessment and treatment of patients with functional neurological disorder are required to improve equitability of services.
    Interesting that they say consensus doesn't need evidence.
     
    Amw66, Holinger, Maat and 17 others like this.
  4. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Australia
    Consensus, aka clinical opinion, is all they have.
     
  5. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,816
    So while we are accused of "doctor shopping" it is perfectly valid for doctors to pass round patients until they reach a doctor who holds dogmatic views (and it is acceptable for those views to have no evidence in support of them) who is willing to impose his non evidence based and biologically implausible and unexplainable treatments upon them.

    Yay for "science"
     
    bobbler, Fero, RedFox and 18 others like this.
  6. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    13,659
    Location:
    Canada
    So the people responsible for massively harmful systemic discrimination, who argue plainly that we are hysterical malingering attention-seeking shirkers, basically sub-humans unworthy of basic respect, find it odd that their colleagues hear their words plainly and apply their recommendations? And their advice is to make their recommendations more widespread, literally the source of stigma, in order to reduce the stigma?

    This is completely delusional. These people's brains are broken. It's really weird seeing people get everything they want and be angry about the outcomes precisely for being exactly what they built. The patients hate it because it is 1) wrong, 2) insulting and 3) ultimately harmful; the people who fabricate this crap hate it because 1) most patients see through the bullshit because we can read words, 2) their medical colleagues apply the intended meaning of those words, not the fantasy they pretend to sell; and of course the medical professionals hate it because 1) it's completely useless and 2) understand that their words are lies and are uncomfortable with that.

    The problem is offering more of itself as a solution, despite having accomplished everything it set out to do and having predictably and inevitably failed because it is a complete delusional fantasy. There is no more "therapeutic relationship" to break. YOU have broke it entirely, smashed it far beyond the point of repair. YOU, the FND/MUS/BPS folks, have built an entire delusional fantasy on lies and gaslighting and think there should be a "therapeutic relationship" out of this? That is the problem.

    Again, this is what the average physician thinks of us. There is no salvaging this. There is no possible trust here. There is no possibility of a "therapeutic relationship" built entirely on abuse, lies and manipulation. This paper actually demonstrates that this here is the average opinion physicians have of us, which not coincidentally happens to exactly be the image the FND/MUS/BPS ideology portrays. This is what this ideology has built. Are they genuinely surprised that they got exactly the outcome they built? Or do they simply view this as a problem of PR, of proper marketing? The conclusions certainly support that.

    Image from a Reddit thread posted here
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2020
    bobbler, alktipping, Philipp and 10 others like this.
  7. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,837
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    Peter Trewhitt, ladycatlover and Andy like this.
  8. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    alktipping and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    We have a number of threads on case studies where the proponents of FND did not have too little uncertainty, but way too much. The consequence was that people with debilitating neurological diseases were misdiagnosed and given completely inappropriate care. There was a poor woman who was found to have a brain turning to mush when some scanning was eventually done. She endured months of labelling as a difficult FND patient as she physically lost her mind. Even when she had died, the authors were trying to suggest that, while she did have a brain-to-mush disease, she also had an FND overlay.

    I hope you will spend some time on the forum @sarahtyson and think about FND some more. Even if FND really is more than an article of faith, (and I know many members here would be very pleased to look at anything claiming to be evidence that it is a thing, and any evidence that it can be fixed with a specific treatment), it is imperative that a high level of uncertainty is maintained, because incorrectly labelling a person with FND can be so utterly utterly inhumane.
     
    bobbler, Gradzy, Arnie Pye and 8 others like this.
  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the attitudes to FND expressed here with the good letter written by David Tuller @dave30th and Sarah Tyson (@sarahtyson).
    https://www.s4me.info/threads/a-new...-saunders-et-al-2023.31323/page-2#post-458988

    Some excerpts from that letter:

    I'm not understanding how the dismissal of Long Covid as something that is largely a functional disorder (triggered mainly by mood disorders) differs from the dismissal of problems labelled functional neurological disorders that are also believed to be able to be fixed with rehabilitation approaches that have no evidence.


    If it is arrogant to expect people to embrace unproven speculations about patients' symptoms when they follow a covid-19 infection, is it not arrogant to expect people to embrace unproven speculations about other patients' symptoms, and, further, to call for training of health care professionals to make them feel more certain when offering unevidenced treatments?

    Perhaps you have adjusted your stance on the application of BPS paradigms to people with illnesses that cannot currently be biologically explained (which of course includes ME/CFS) since you authored this paper, Sarah?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
    shak8, Arnie Pye, oldtimer and 5 others like this.
  11. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    From the introduction:
    It seems the authors, including Sarah Tyson and the Masters student that she was mentoring, believe that misdiagnosis of FNDs are a rare occurrence and that people should be confident that FNDs can be diagnosed accurately.

    The authors suggest that clinician uncertainty harms the effectiveness of the treatment.

    The certainty about these diagnoses concerns me. There is evidence that commonly used techniques fail to pick up electrical disruption in deeper parts of the brain that could cause "PNES".[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    FND is clearly conceptualised as psychogenic.

    Using metaphors to describe the illness and being confident in the diagnosis are regarded as "Successful techniques for treatment". Unnecessary testing should be avoided, as should referrals



    There's a clear view presented that FND diagnosis is straightforward
    and that patients should be told of their psychological difficulties so that treatment can be more effective.
    There's a sense that neurologists should just man-up and get on with telling people they have an FND so that the multi-disciplinary team members don't have to. As in so many FND papers, the focus is on selling the idea better - the answer to patient dissatisfaction and lack of improvement is better metaphors and removing stigma.

    The paper naively suggests that patients just want to be listened to and legitimised. How the authors know this is not made clear, given that they only reviewed papers that talked to healthcare professionals.

     
  13. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    This is all dyed-in-the wool, BPS play book stuff. We see these points repeatedly in papers as FND proponents wring their hands about how better ways of giving and explaining the diagnosis have to be found. And, that's not surprising as this paper is a review of papers examining health care professionals' attitudes towards and experience of FND patients.

    There's nothing here that remotely challenges the concept of FND or promotes any uncertainty when faced with someone with an FND diagnosis - quite the opposite. There's no recognition of the fact that patients might be upset because they aren't getting better, and that there is no evidence that the supposed treatments fix people. The paper just calls for quicker, more certain, more confident diagnosis of FND.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
    Ash, Gradzy, Fero and 6 others like this.
  14. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,795
    Location:
    UK
    This also holds if patients are given a made-up diagnosis.

    And no level of confidence or authority will negate its made-up-ness.
     
  15. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    700
    Location:
    Warton, Carnforth, Lancs, UK
    How can a diagnosis of FND be made with any certainty or accuracy? That's a non starter. FND is not defined by objective evidence.

    It's a diagnosis made once other diagnoses have been considered and eliminated, by clinicians who buy into FND as a valid concept.

    And there are many FNDs as FND encompasses everything and anything currently poorly understood / misunderstood / poorly researched. Or whatever the clinician decides it means. Sadly this will only increase clinician strain about uncertainty and fear of misdiagnosing patients (a likely certainty).

    The claims of accuracy and 'rare' misdiagnosis are red flags. Misdiagnosis is everyday and everywhere in pw poorly understood conditions. It's 100% in the territory because so little is known.

    The 'rare' argument is the same one I challenged Richard Brown's regardung his article re MUS in The Psychologist back in 2013
    https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/explaining-unexplained

    He claimed that MUS misdiagnosis was rare.

    My response published in The Psychologist can be read here:
    https://meassociation.org.uk/2014/0...lained-letter-to-the-psychologist-april-2014/

    FND, MUS, SSD et al look like a rather desperate attempt to reduce clinical uncertainty where resources are slim and time is tight. But there is no benefit for patients beyond having a label. And much to be lost if patients sit with a diagnosis that could be better understood or treated effectively improving their quality of life and functioning (which might not exist now but never will if researched under FND banner). And as I mentioned above FND does not reduce uncertainty in clinical encounters, quite the opposite.

    If FND is allowed to thrive it will comprehensively demolish any attempt to understood any of the conditions being sucked into its umbrella. No one wins. Certainly not patients.
     
    Lou B Lou, Gradzy, rvallee and 5 others like this.
  16. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    15,175
    Location:
    London, UK
    There is certainly a naïvety in the suggestion that there are known effective approaches but I think it is important no to confuse a whole range of different issues here.

    I can answer that - because patients say so from their 'lived experience'. I have come across socially people who are greatly comforted by the FND diagnosis and we have seen that on the forum from people posting to say that. Remember that the FND patient forums are against ME patients because they deny its reality?

    Tyson has bought in to the 'psychogenic' story, clearly. But if we take 'functional' at face value to mean brain malfunction at a subtle level without structural change it is perfectly legitimate. It may be that non-epileptic seizure events can now be shown on fMRI or sophisticated EEG, but since we have little or no idea how brain activity relates to thought that doesn't mean these are not events in a 'mind' if you believe in such a thing. This is where my other interest in the structure of human thought becomes very relevant. I think people have got it completely wrong so it is not surprising everything is in a mess.
     
    FMMM1, shak8, Amw66 and 3 others like this.
  17. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    15,175
    Location:
    London, UK
    But all diagnoses are made up to some extent. They all represent imperfect and partial understanding of mechanisms and prognosis. There is a serious problem with FND, yes, but inasmuch as it indicates that the patient does not warrant open brain surgery which might leave them with a real stroke as a complication (an event recently in my family) it is on the right track.
     
    FMMM1, Peter Trewhitt and Kitty like this.
  18. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    My point was that this is a paper reviewing other papers that interviewed health care professionals. At no point were patients with FND diagnoses directly asked what they want. But, fair enough, the authors do cite some papers with titles that suggest that people with FND were asked about their experiences. I do think that the statements about patients are presented in a way that suggests that patients are of one mind in what they want and what they think, and especially how they feel about receiving an FND diagnosis.

    e.g.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
    Peter Trewhitt, Sean and Kitty like this.
  19. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    29,374
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Sure, but this paper suggests that most healthcare professionals don't see it like that.
    The term is so debased, there's so much prejudice, that it probably can't fairly be used if someone means it simply in a 'I can't see any structural change that is causing the dysfunction' sense.
     
    Gradzy, Lilas, Fero and 5 others like this.
  20. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,795
    Location:
    UK
    Fair points. Perhaps I should have said something like cynically made-up diagnosis.

    Because whilst it was initially reasonable to formulate and argue out the BPS theory, deploying it in clinical practice without any supporting evidence—and claiming that just knowing is evidence—is a different kettle of haddock.

    If doctors who've found a collection of things they can't explain decide to call it FND, that's fine. The problems start when some of them explain it anyway.
     

Share This Page