2025: The 2019/24 Cochrane Larun review Exercise Therapy for CFS - including IAG, campaign, petition, comments and articles

Discussion in '2021 Cochrane Exercise Therapy Review' started by S4ME News, Dec 22, 2024.

  1. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    57,952
    Location:
    UK
    That's a really good article, @dave30th, thank you.
     
    Binkie4, Deanne NZ, EzzieD and 14 others like this.
  2. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,363
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    Yes, a great article Dave.
    Thanks to you and The Sick Times for the mention of the petition and the link.
     
    Woolie, Binkie4, Deanne NZ and 13 others like this.
  3. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,618
    Thanks. It should help get the word out to a US audience and people with Long Covid.
     
    Binkie4, Deanne NZ, EzzieD and 14 others like this.
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    57,952
    Location:
    UK
    15,281 signatures on the petition.
     
    Binkie4, Deanne NZ, EzzieD and 14 others like this.
  5. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,363
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
  6. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,700
    Location:
    Romandie (Switzerland)
    At what point does cochrane have to stop ignoring this. I mean 15’000; that’s a lot of people!
     
    Binkie4, Deanne NZ, EzzieD and 11 others like this.
  7. Yann04

    Yann04 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,700
    Location:
    Romandie (Switzerland)
    Do they see us as a sort of equivalent to antivaxxers or something — the kind of stuff Sharpe and Wessley tried to paint us as? So no matter how many people support our cause it’s irrelevant to them cause they are convinced of their rightousness…
     
  8. bobbler

    bobbler Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,415
    liking the inclusion of:

    "In addition, Cochrane republished the old review with a 2024 date, creating the false impression that it had, in fact, been updated.

    Many patients understandably viewed these actions as a betrayal of the promises Cochrane made when it published the 2019 version. At that time, Cochrane’s editor in chief, Dr. Karla Soares-Weiser, acknowledged in an editorial statement that the review was “based on a research question and a set of methods from 2002, and reflects evidence from studies that applied definitions of ME/CFS from the 1990s.” In other words, Cochrane committed to the update because its leadership was aware that the published review was inadequate for present purposes."
     
    ukxmrv, Binkie4, Deanne NZ and 8 others like this.
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    31,363
    Location:
    Aotearoa New Zealand
    I think, having communicated with some, and to the extent that they think about us at all,
    they think that at least a large proportion of us are hypochondriacs and psychosomatics who are truly helped by GET and CBT. They may think that a minority of us have a physical disease, but they truly don't believe that GET and CBT harms anyone. I have been told 'who are you to deny people a treatment that can help them?'.

    So, yes, they won't listen to us.

    Unfortunately, it seems that they can't be bothered, or they think it's not in their interest, to look at the quality of the trials and, actually, the lack of evidence for any real benefit from those trials and work things out for themselves. We need real experts in trial design and systematic reviews to speak up.
     
    Michelle, Woolie, ukxmrv and 15 others like this.
  10. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    14,246
    Location:
    Canada
    Pretty much. Not that there's any basis to it, but this is the general idea. It makes neglecting millions of people go smoothly down the throat.
     
  11. alktipping

    alktipping Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,333
    but they are not the right sort of people .Being that signatories are not the people who have power and influence to damage their careers.
     
    Michelle, geminiqry, Hutan and 15 others like this.
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    5,050
    Location:
    UK
    I think you make a very good point there! To Cochrane, we probably look like 15,000 patients in straitjackets complaining about being forced to take their meds.

    And abuse of a group of patients on this scale is so rare that when patients push back, we're going to look like the weird ones, not the perpetrators - especially since they've managed to paint us as having dodgy thinking.

    @Jonathan Edwards @dave30th - What do you think about starting up a petition or very widely circulated open letter for only clinicians/researchers to sign, in their tens of thousands? Probably one not specifically about the Larun review but about the use of open-label trials with subjective primary measures, which would take Larun (and possibly Cochrane) down with it?

    This practice needs driving out of medicine. It should never have got in through the door. It's time for the doctors to start the revolution!

    Are clinicians/researchers likely to be too trapped in the system to feel free to sign? If so, there's surely a ton of retired ones ready to be unleashed...
    _________________

    This post has been copied and folliowing discussion moved to a new thread:
    Can we influence trial and review methodology, eg open-label trials with subjective primary outcomes?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2025
  13. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    57,952
    Location:
    UK
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2025
    Midnattsol, Hutan, alktipping and 5 others like this.
  14. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,611
    Thank you to those who have put such hard work in our latest set of complaints to Cochrane shared in our thread 2023 Open Letter to Cochrane.

    Going on our past experience I guess any meaningful response is highly unlikely, but who knows perhaps the increasing negative publicity might push the Board into actually taking action.
     
    Hutan, alktipping, rvallee and 11 others like this.
  15. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    57,952
    Location:
    UK
    The S4ME committee has today submitted more complaints to the Cochrane Complaints process.

    The submission is posted in full over two posts here:
    S4ME: 2023 Open Letter to Cochrane - request for action on the ME/CFS Exercise Therapy Review

    I won't copy it all here, since it's long.

    This is the list of headings we used:

    Complaints about republishing an outdated and flawed review as if it were a new review, and the failure to withdraw it.

    Complaint 2025-1: Creation of a new citation and publication date as a result of attaching an editorial note to an unchanged review

    Complaint 2025-2: Publication of a review as a new version without critical comments being addressed

    Complaint 2025-3: Misleading labelling of the unaddressed critical comments as applying to 'a previous version'

    Complaint 2025-4: The appearance but not the substance of an update

    Complaint 2025-5: Questioning Cochrane's decision making. What was the real reason behind Cochrane's actions on this review?

    This is our conclusion:

    Conclusion and a way forward.

    We find Cochrane's dragging out the promised two year replacement review process and sudden decision after five years of little progress to cancel the new review, and further to publish the flawed and outdated 2019 review five years on as if it were a new review unethical. Cochrane's ongoing actions in relation to this Review are harming its reputation, misleading clinicians, and most important of all, harming many thousands of patients.

    We find these actions by Cochrane so clearly indefensible and the arguments so illogical that we can only conclude that senior editors and Trustees have given in to pressure from proponents of exercise therapy for ME/CFS.

    We ask Cochrane to take the following actions in order to restore its credibility and avoid further harm to patients:

    1. Remove the 2024 version (version 9) from publication.

    2. Post the Editor's note on the 2019 version stating cancellation of the new review process, but removing ongoing endorsement of the 2019 Review.

    3. Post a new Editor's note, as advised by the Independent Advisory Group, saying that the Review is outdated and inaccurate, and should not be used for clinical care.

    4. Replace the inaccurate notes attached to the critical comments submitted since 2019 with a note clarifying that the comments have not been addressed or acted on by the Review authors.

    5. Make a public statement that the Review should not be used for clinical care on the grounds that its findings are unsound.

    6. Stand firm against pressure from proponents of exercise therapy for ME/CFS with vested interests, including all those we indicated in Complaint 2025-5.

    7. Set up an urgent review of the decision not to withdraw the Larun review. This may necessitate seeking advice from external experts in clinical trials from medical fields outside psychiatry, psychology, psychosomatics, rehabilitation and exercise medicine, and with no expressed support for exercise therapy or other psychobehavioural interventions for ME/CFS or conflicts of interest. It should also involve an unbiased review of all evidence provided by us and others including comments, complaints and material collated by the Independent Advisory group.
    __________________
     
  16. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,611
    Do we have any evidence that anyone at Cochrane has actually read any comments or complaints since Tovey backed down on withdrawing Larun et al 2017, certainly at least since Larun et al 2019? Certainly apart from saying that Larun et al 2019 is not being withdrawn, the limited response we have had from Cochrane could have been written without having read the complaints submitted.

    I suppose there is the one response from the authors that recently appeared below Larun et 2019.
     
  17. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    Norway
    Excellent work as always, @Trish and the rest!
     
    Arvo, Missense, Hutan and 9 others like this.
  18. Nightsong

    Nightsong Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    987
    Hilda Bastian has commented further in a blog post entitled "A Balancing Act":
    https://hildabastian.wordpress.com/2025/02/05/a-balancing-act/
     
  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    16,351
    Location:
    London, UK
    Michelle, MEMarge, ukxmrv and 12 others like this.
  20. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    57,952
    Location:
    UK
    Hilda revealed in one of her updates that Cochrane had spent over a year investigating a complaint from exercise for ME/CFS supporters. She also mentioned in that update some other complaints that had been investigated.
    We have had nothing official from Cochrane except standard 'we are still investigating' emails relating to our complaints.

    Hilda said this on her talkpage on January 26th 2025, in answer to a question from me:
    https://hbprojecttalk.wordpress.com/2024/12/18/brief-message/
     
    Michelle, Woolie, ukxmrv and 16 others like this.

Share This Page