Preprint A Proposed Mechanism for ME/CFS Invoking Macrophage Fc-gamma-RI and Interferon Gamma, 2025, Edwards, Cambridge and Cliff

As someone has said, more than anything it is an exercise in laying out a framework for arguing any model of ME/CFS one might prefer.
which is itself a very helpful step. Up till now, it’s mostly consisted of “ Here is our finding. Here is how it could explain an aspect of the illness. Job done.”

Any explanation involving a prodromal phase needs to cover why there is a major shift in disease status over a short (or relatively short) period of time – the expansion event or phase.
Are you saying that there is a clear prodrome and then an event that leads to full blown? ME/CFS? I thought some people argued that Gradual on was a Slow andcontinuous process That gradually developed into the illness.

And I think we lack good data on gradual onset. Clearly it happens for quite a lot of people. But is that most people, 10%? 30%?

The something in the blood I think came from the original nano needle studies that suggested an active ingredient in ME/CFS serum. Those studies never got replicated and always seemed pretty hard to interpret. Our hypothesis involves antibody populations in blood being involved, and they might conceivably be seen in that light but I don't think the original data were firm enough to revisit
when I wrote the blog about “something in the blood“, I was very optimistic. Each individual study seemed quite weak, but I hope that that would change in the coming years. As far as I know, it hasn’t, and I agree that there is currently no need to accommodate this idea in a model of the illness.

head, I think Leonard Jason’s prospective study found that the majority of people who met ME/CFS dx criteria at 6 months following mononucleosis recovered within 2 years but that recovery was rare thereafter
I’m not totally sure that’s what it says. From my memory of numerous perspective studies, mostly after glandular fever, a large majority of patients cover before the six month threshold. Maybe half or a few more of those left recover within two years. I’m not aware We have any data beyond 2 years. If we do, I hope someone will point to it.
 
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I don't feel I am in the right frame of mind to respond right now. I just don't like when I sense mocking especially when there has been a lot of suffering. I apologize if I have misinterpreted.
Whenever I think I see it I have to respond and I am sorry for that.
 
Who or what is vigilant?

Good question. Who is 'who' and what is a what? Not an easy question.

In terms of diagnosis the intended suggestion is that the apparently higher rate of ME/CFS in women may partly be influenced by women taking more care of their health in a conscious way and getting diagnosed where men may not. I don't intend to dwell on such things, and there are of course all sorts of other uncertainties, but I think it is sensible to make clear that all possibilities need thinking about. Censoring all reference to brain function would make it much easier for BPS people to pick holes as I see it.

And what is the «learnt» neuroplasticity?

Neuroplasticity. The learnt is just to indicate that we are talking about 'learnt' processes in general.

I know it’s not your fault that neuroplasticity has become a favoured term in the pseudoscientific circles, but might the term benefit from being explained in a way that makes it less likely to be misinterpreted?

I am deliberately avoiding that. The more we are seen to be defending ourselves against a BPS approach the more we will be seen as prejudiced against it. Neuroplasticity is a perfectly legitimate scientific concept and may well be important in ME/CFS, at least in some cases. I think it is better that we raise these things than reviewers come up with them - "They just think it's T cells and completely dismiss neuroplasticity. Typical Cartesian dualism.".
 
All this needs to be is a shift from the 0.01% group to the 0.1% group for T cells that happen to be a nuisance in the relevant genetic and antibody population context. Since we all have clones at both 0.01 and 0.1% levels there is nothing to see. The shift might turn out to be more easily identified but it is hard to say.
Could this explain severity. Like perhaps a mild person will have 0.05% while a very severe 0.2%. And maybe continued overexertion can trigger feedback loops that make these specific antibody recognising T-cells proliferate?

[Note I haven’t read this whole thread and at the rate this is balloning I might never be able to. Sorry if this has already been asked or mentioned.]
 
I am deliberately avoiding that. The more we are seen to be defending ourselves against a BPS approach the more we will be seen as prejudiced against it.
I’m not sure I follow here. Who «sees» us, and why would we be trying to please them?
Neuroplasticity is a perfectly legitimate scientific concept and may well be important in ME/CFS, at least in some cases.
Yes, but it’s also being used very wrong, on everyone, and as the basis for supposedly curative interventions with great potential for harm.
I think it is better that we raise these things than reviewers come up with them - "They just think it's T cells and completely dismiss neuroplasticity. Typical Cartesian dualism.".
I’m not suggesting that we don’t raise them, just that it is done in a way that is also less open for misinterpretation. Although I guess it could be argued that pseudoscience doesn’t follow logic, so they are going to end up at their favoured conclusion regardless of which starting point we give them..
 
I’m not suggesting that we don’t raise them, just that it is done in a way that is also less open for misinterpretation. Although I guess it could be argued that pseudoscience doesn’t follow logic, so they are going to end up at their favoured conclusion regardless of which starting point we give them..
I think you are right. I don’t feel comfortable sending a copy of this to my caregivers precisely because I know they will see words like “plasticity” and think that means I should be meditating and make them dig into BPS stuff.
 
I think you are right. I don’t feel comfortable sending a copy of this to my caregivers precisely because I know they will see words like “plasticity” and think that means I should be meditating and make them dig into BPS stuff.
I’m not either, because they don’t have the experience to quickly sniff out the pseudoscience elsewhere. If it sounds credible or familiar, to them, it’s probably partially true.
 
Interesting paper. Well worth a read, even by those not interested in the biological details. Most of the paper gives an overview of what we know about ME/CFS and what interesting observations need to be addressed in a theory of ME/CFS.

If I understand the gist of it, ME/CFS shows signs of both antibody-mediated diseases (female predominance) and T-cell mediated disease (onset of a persistent illness following intracellular infection). By focusing on Fc-gamma-RI the theory offers a means to combine these two aspects.

It assumes a new subset of low-affinity antibodies that do not cause tissue damage but a 'hypervigilant' immune activation. They react with every day junk antigens such as antigens derived from gut flora or low-level persistent viruses such as Herpesviruses, and are then cleared by Fc-gamma-RI on macrophages primed by gamma interferon. This then activates T cell and a whole immune activation cascade that sensitives nerves to pain and fatigue without overt inflammation.

The special thing about Fc-gamma-RI is that it can bind to antibodies even when they are not part of an immune complex. The paper speculates that they might act like a 'nightwatchman's round' or surveillance system and that this is dysregulated in ME/CFS.

Hope I got that right?
 
None of the major psychiatric illnesses show the sort of female predominance shared by ME/CFS and autoantibody-mediated diseases
Would be good to have a reference for this. Anorexia nervosa probably has a high female predominance and depression and anxiety also affect about 2 times more females then men if I recall correctly.
 
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the paper said:
Nevertheless, some basic findings are agreed upon.
...
ME/CFS has a variable course. Spontaneous improvement or even resolution may occur, chiefly with onset before the age of 20[20]. Otherwise, it is a long-term fluctuating illness, in some cases with progressive deterioration. Adult-onset illness mostly never fully resolves. These patterns suggest that, once initiated, processes responsible for symptoms involve a shift in a regulatory mechanism, open to ongoing feedback effects, both positive and negative.

I still think that there is a problem with implying that recovery is rare in adults during the first few years, for a number of reasons that include
* the evidence we have suggests it's wrong,
* it opens the door for people to falsely claim that their intervention (rehab clinics, GET, CBT, LP ear seeds...) has worked
* it makes it harder for people in those first years to have hope that things will be better, even though the evidence suggests that they probably will be

If physicians have any sense they will forget diagnostic criteria. Applying them via questionnaire is certainly not how medicine should work. They are a huge red herring. In the months after EBV most people improve and any decent physician knows that. We are interested in the illness that mostly doesn't. You could probably say that a diagnosis of ME/CFS is not allowed for 18 months after EBV on criteria because you have another explanation.
There is a potential for a lot of spurious precision around in this game.
The position that recovery is rare in adults seems to be based largely on the position that 'if ME/CFS symptoms persist, it is ME/CFS. If ME/CFS symptoms don't persist for years, then it was never ME/CFS and is better called something else. But, that ignores all the diagnostic criteria, the NICE guideline, that allow ME/CFS diagnosis at 3, 4 or 6 months - that is the reality that this theory goes out into. I think an example of spurious precision is suggesting that there is a major change in recovery rates at age 20.

Again, I would rather not fiddle about with this because it is irrelevant to the argument being made.
If you are going to make a point about (adult) recovery and say that it is a 'basic agreed finding', it needs to be true. You say you don't want to add to the length, but you could say less and have it be more correct. You could say

"ME/CFS has a variable course. Spontaneous improvement or even resolution may occur, typically in the first few years after onset. Otherwise, it is a long-term fluctuating illness, in some cases with progressive deterioration. These patterns suggest that, once initiated, processes responsible for symptoms involve a shift in a regulatory mechanism, open to ongoing feedback effects, both positive and negative."

I don't think the evidence about resolution being better for children is terribly strong - factors such as only requiring a 3 month illness duration for diagnosis complicate things. We have much better evidence for rates of recovery being associated with time from onset. I don't think the edit I have suggested creates problems for your theory. Do you?

As someone has said, more than anything it is an exercise in laying out a framework for arguing any model of ME/CFS one might prefer.
In that context, if the fact that many adults meeting ME/CFS criteria at 4 and 6 months subsequently get better with time is ignored, people who prefer the BPS model can use it to their advantage.

I don't want to distract further from the actual theory in this paper, so I'll leave it there.
 
Currently the hypothesis seems quite flexible with lots of connections not yet filled in yet. I wonder if there are any tests, observations or experiments that would not fit or refute the hypothesis?

Also interested in the sentence about intravenous immunoglobulin because quite a lot of patients are still experimenting with this, so there is likely some data on it. I assume it would need to taken repeatedly in order for it to work according to the theory?
Displacement of endogenous IgG from binding FcγRI, particularly on an easily reversible basis with a competitive inhibitor with a short half-life, might be an interesting strategy to investigate. Intravenous immunoglobulin therapy might produce some benefit in this way but is cumbersome and expensive
 
I’m not sure I follow here. Who «sees» us, and why would we be trying to please them?

The 'we' is the authors and as authors we do not want to pull back from mentioning things like neuroplasticity, not to please anyone but to avoid being assumed to be taking a biased view.

Yes, but it’s also being used very wrong, on everyone, and as the basis for supposedly curative interventions with great potential for harm.

But that isn't a reason not to mention it if it is possibly part of the reality, surely. As you say, there is nobody we are 'trying to please'.

I’m not suggesting that we don’t raise them, just that it is done in a way that is also less open for misinterpretation.

I am not clear why the manuscript is particularly open to misinterpretation. If I remember rightly we simply point out that there are possibilities that cannot be excluded but for which there is no particular grounding.
 
Would be good to have a reference for this. Anorexia nervosa probably has a high female predominance and depression and anxiety also affect about 2 times more females then men if I recall correctly.
I think Anorexia nevrosa is probably underdiagnosed in young men, and I wouldn’t trust any estimates on depression or anxiety given it’s frequent use as a catch-all for any complaints from women by practitioners that should know better. How many of e.g. the 10 % of women with endometriosis have been dismissed as anxious or depressed?

We also know how flawed the questionnaires are..
 
Would be good to have a reference for this. Anorexia nervosa probably has a high female predominance and depression and anxiety also affect about 2 times more females then men if I recall correctly.

I didn't find the sort of 3:1 or 4:1 female dominance when I searched through psychiatric conditions but anorexia nervosa might be in that area I guess. I do not have a specific reference for the general statement.
 
The 'we' is the authors and as authors we do not want to pull back from mentioning things like neuroplasticity, not to please anyone but to avoid being assumed to be taking a biased view.
Fair enough, although I don’t understand why someone would reasonably perceive you as biased. And I’m not sure much can be done about the unreasonable ones.
I am not clear why the manuscript is particularly open to misinterpretation. If I remember rightly we simply point out that there are possibilities that cannot be excluded but for which there is no particular grounding.
The evidence for long-term epigenetic or ‘learnt’ neuroplastic change in ME/CFS remains at present inconclusive, but it is possible that it could contribute to the difference between the common resolving ‘post-viral fatigue syndrome’ seen after infections like EBV and the persistent disabling illness of ME/CFS, perhaps because of genetic susceptibility.
To anyone of the psychosomatics, I fear this will read as a suggestion of the possibility that «the people that end up with ME/CFS have learned to be sick, and the people that got better did not so they recovered. So we just have to teach pwME/CFS to stop being sick.»

To be clear: I don’t think that is what you’re actually saying. Just that it’s what other might say that you are saying.
 
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