A thread on what people with ME/CFS need in the way of service

I don't think trying to gather lots of signatories would be a good idea here. there are too many competing political interests. At this stage I am not sure that a signed letter is the way to go in fact.

I have been asked not to pass on information from what has been said at ForwardME meetings but I think I should mention that the ForwardME services subgroup has expressed interest in the idea of writing a specification and giving it to DHSC. I would like to feed back anything developed here to them.
Some of us are permitted to be informed of some of this FME Delivery Plan debate legitimately, as we were involved with Delivery Plan at the outset with DHSC.
After NICE GRIP and Roundtable.

That DHSC lead was 'moved on', I believe...during delivery plan exercise?

Too sympathetic to our cause perhaps...?
A true ME&CFS champion......

An officer who also had Lived Experience.. !!


Some of us also are engaged with the subgroup, reps who are coordinating matters so there are not too many voices all at the same time.
They are doing a grand job which I have full confidence in. So thank you 'Sub group'and reps.
 
I wonder if simply prohibiting psychologists/psychiatrists/OTs/therapists/rehab people whatever title they use from interacting with pwME would be the simplest solution. It is extremely clear so unlikely to be skirted around. And yes there may sometimes be a legitimate need to have interaction with these folks but wouldn't this reduce most of the harm caused by the current clinics and prevent new ones from popping up? If these people do 99% harm 1% good I think it may be a worthwhile tradeoff.
 
Yes, but that is the problem isn't it? They will think their cherry-picked retrospective study is 'well-designed'. I think controlled is actually the right word if one goes in to what is needed (a relevant comparator) and would work fairly well in the context.

But it very obviously isn't to BACME.


Yes, we discussed 'well-informed OTs' before. I can't remember what we ended up with.

I agree that there needs to be a headline list and some detailed explanatory text. The headline list may be open to paring down, but it may be worth having a bit more than barest bones even there.
There are different types of OTs so if anyone who knows what the job titles term is of the equipment and adaptation focused type we are looking for is then it might be useful to be that specific ?
 
I wonder if simply prohibiting psychologists/psychiatrists/OTs/therapists/rehab people whatever title they use from interacting with pwME would be the simplest solution. It is extremely clear so unlikely to be skirted around. And yes there may sometimes be a legitimate need to have interaction with these folks but wouldn't this reduce most of the harm caused by the current clinics and prevent new ones from popping up? If these people do 99% harm 1% good I think it may be a worthwhile tradeoff.

I don't think you can prohibit involvement of any of these people, since there will be times when they are needed. I suspect that enlightened counselling psychologists may be at least as helpful as anyone else for someone with ME/CFS. I think the strategy has to be to stipulate other staffing needs, such as medical and nursing and emphasise that others are only brought in for specific purposes.
 
On the wish list would be a nurse of physician, competent to deal with both Comorbidity, co existing condition burden and confident to recognise cummulative diease burden, how it interrelates and impacts, and to refer on to consultant specialisms?
Holistic medicine...?
 
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And this one too - 'well-informed' can be in the eye of the beholder.
Absolutely. When I used this term in my rough list of suggestions, it was intended to be shorthand which people here would understand – not a term that would suffice on its own in a published document.

I think Jo’s suggestion of a headline list with more detailed explanations below would work.
 
Does it go without saying that they would provide good letters describing the impact of the illness which could be used in other areas of life?

I have found myself needing such letters. I have been asked about past, present and future treatments in situations in which undertaking treatments was seen as favourable. Changing that perception might be a battle for another thread but perhaps some patients would benefit from a paragraph explaining that there were no approved treatments and that it shouldn't be taken against the patient or interpreted as the patient has reached good and stable health.
 
I am not aware of 'different types of OTs' just OTs in different sorts of jobs with different duties.

Regarding what @bobbler and @Jonathan Edwards are discussing, here's a list from an OT website of the different things they can help with:
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I think we would want to be able to avail of many of those services, particularly the first in green and wheelchairs.

What we don't want is for the current/pre-2021 OT approach to continue, which is/was working towards increasing people's activity levels.

I do think we need to spell out that activity-increasing therapies are not part of what we want. What we want is supportive care. That supportive care can include supporting someone who is improving to increase activity in a more sustainable way than they might otherwise. But it would not include trying to convince everyone, whether deteriorating, staying the same, or improving that they can increase activity if they just do it right.

I think otherwise we'll end up with the same as what we have had, with a Clinical Nurse Specialist tacked on.

My real concern is that none of this means anything if the people in the posts are the people we've had until now. Health professionals claiming to have an interest in ME/CFS are often just interested in what they see as psychosomatic conditions. A physican-led service won't help if the doctor is steering everyone in an FND or fibromyalgia direction and thereby to exercise. A Clinical Nurse Specialist won't help if it's Chalder.
 
@Evergreen Seconded.

(When I told my LC clinic that I had borrowed a wheelchair, it was taken against me and written in a letter in such way.)
That's so horrible, I'm so sorry that happened to you. It's so dispiriting when your resourcefulness is used against you or to mock you. Been there. Will be there again.

Keep doing what you need to do to get what you need.
 
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I have been jotting. Likely lots of things for people to disagree with but this is what I ended up with so far:

Suggested Service Provision Format for ME/CF



The following is a draft outline for a service format for ME/CFS in the UK based on current evidence relating to patient needs.



Key structural elements:

1. A service primarily managed and delivered by a hospital-based physician.

2. Dedicated nurse practitioner support for ongoing practical care.

3. Initial assessment in a clinic within an established specialty department such as neurology or rheumatology, with average waiting times of ~2-3 weeks, with an option for domiciliary assessment for severe cases.

4. Both domiciliary and clinic service for further management, as needed. Domiciliary care to include that provided for other seriously disabling diseases such as motor neuron disease (sight and hearing aids, dentistry etc.)

5. Facilities for making available ME/CFS-suitable Inpatient beds (single rooms with reduced environmental stimuli) for intercurrent medical care in all hospitals with clinic bases.

6. Dedicated regional hospital units for crisis care for very severe ME/CFS cases, under a physician with a special interest, with provision of ME/CFS-suitable inpatient beds in association with nutritional units for feeding support.


7. Regular follow-up by a physician, or where no significant medical change is expected, a nurse practitioner, for assessment of ongoing ME/CFS status and detection of other coincident conditions. Intervals may range from, initially, a few weeks, to six monthly or annual review, as judged appropriate by patient and health care professionals.

8. Taking advantage of opportunities to site regional centres alongside research institutions with an interest in ME/CFS.

9. Provision of realistic but sympathetic advice on prognosis, and advice on self-management based on the collective experience of other patients. Provision of advice and assistance in relation to education and employment needs.


10. No provision of (off-label) pharmacological or non-pharmacological treatments without a reliable evidence base, unless as part of well-designed controlled trials.

11. Emphasis on support through validation and shared experience, with access to professional emotional/psychological support (ie well informed counselling) if needed. Provision of information about good quality charity resources,

12. Access to other health professionals such as an occupational therapist or dietitian where needed for home adaptation, dietary advice etc.

13. Facilities for consultation online (Telehealth) for situations where people cannot readily access either clinics or domiciliary services.

14. Provision of long-term care facilities for the very disabled who have no support for living independently at home, on an equal basis to provision for other disabling musculoskeletal and neurological disorders.





Further Background and Detail



Provision of care for a person with ME/CFS requires direct involvement of a physician with expertise in the field primarily to ensure that the diagnosis is valid, that uncommon differential diagnoses have been excluded and that there is ongoing review of symptoms because of the difficulties in separating features of ME/CFS from other intercurrent problems. For some people with ME/CFS assessment may be straightforward and the need for further medical input limited but in other cases the need for ongoing medical supervision may be considerable.

Physicians leading ME/CFS services need to be constantly updated on developments in related disciplines and will benefit from ongoing contact with a range of other clinical problems that can inform ME/CFS care. Ongoing education of that sort can only be available in a hospital setting. This is understood in relation to the management of other disabling diseases and should apply equally to ME/CFS.

Beyond diagnostic assessment, a lot of practical supportive care can be provided by an allied health professional such as a nurse practitioner, who may also be able to take on a closer and more regular role in support. Nothing in the management of ME/CFS per se is at present based on a theoretical framework requiring specialised training in background physiology or psychology so there is no need for involvement of a wider range of professionals in core support. Where the illness has a major impact on mood, access to a professional with counselling/psychology skills should be available as for other disabling conditions.

A major problem with care for ME/CFS has been that it has not been accepted as falling under any particular medical specialty. What evidence we have suggests that the problem is primarily neurological, with an infective trigger in at least some cases. Services in the past were often under infectious disease physicians. However, in practical care terms, ME/CFS care may have more in common with long term disabling neurological and rheumatological diseases. Neurology seems most relevant but rheumatology has accommodated a number of conditions the do not easily fall into a specialty category, such as chronic pain and muscle disease, especially where there may be immunological features.

The key need is for ME/CFS to be included in the standard care model for all other disabling conditions, within a specialty with physicians with the relevant detailed knowledge, especially as there is such a desperate need to learn more about the biology of the condition in order to devise meaningful treatments. If ME/CFS care is divorced from standard medical services, difficult diagnostic decisions will be missed and no progress will be made towards effective care. Dedicated ME/CFS pathways will be appropriate but that should not lead to service isolation.

ME/CFS raises a specific need for domiciliary care that is perhaps unique in that people with ME/CFS find hospital attendance not only difficult, but also posing a risk for an extended relapse of symptoms due to the exertion involved. It may be possible to cover some of the needs for assessment and care at home through primary care staff such as district nurses but for severe cases nurse practitioners with special experience in ME/CFS problems are in a better position to provide optimal care, if acting in liaison with a specialist physician.

Admission to hospital for inpatient care should be minimised wherever possible but people with ME/CFS will need admission for intercurrent problems from time to time. It is essential that hospitals are able to allocate beds that provide, or can be adapted to provide, protection from environmental stimuli that may precipitate extended relapse of symptoms. This should apply to all hospitals with ME/CFS-serving clinic bases and all general acute hospitals.

A relatively small number of people with very severe ME/CFS will require admission for complications of the illness itself and in particular nutritional failure. A limited number of regional or supra-regional units are needed to provide ME/CFS suitable beds in conjunction with expert nutritional support facilities. This is of the highest priority in view of the continuing reports of avoidable deaths from nutritional failure. Where possible such units should take advantage of opportunities to interact with research teams able to conduct both basic biological and translational clinical studies in ME/CFS.

The recognition by the 2021 NICE Guideline Committee of the lack of supportive evidence for the prior deconditioning model for ME/CFS and therapies based on that model has left health professionals without any clear guidance on care delivery. The NG206 Guideline recommended personal care plans involving activity management but it is very unclear what evidence base there is for this, if any, and exactly how it should be implemented. It has become clear that there are differences of view in how to respond, either by using a modification of the graded exercise approach often called pacing up or by simply emphasising the need to recognise limitations on activity levels that can be tolerated without worsening of symptoms. In our view it is essential that advice should be based purely on the collective experience of other people with ME/CFS and not on speculative theorising on energy metabolism, or autonomic or adrenal function. Simple advice on judging activity limits based on personal experience is all that is justified. At present there is no good evidence for electronic devices or detailed diaries being of value.

ME/CFS follows an extended course over many months and most often years. People with ME/CFS are not expected to show improvement in response to care provision in the short term. There are therefore no ‘goals of therapy’ to be set and no relevant assessments of ‘treatment success’ such as patient reported outcome measures. The primary index of a successful service is the degree to which people with ME/CFS feel adequately supported and validated.

An important part of care will be provision of a realistic prognosis and practical information relating to education, employment, financial help and other non-medical support.

NICE Guideline NG206 summarises general medical measures for symptomatic relief, such as analgesia. Beyond these measures based on licensed general indications off-label prescribing should not be part of service provision unless as part of carefully planned controlled studies capable of providing useful information about wider use. For most drugs and procedures commonly used off-label for ME/CFS we have good reason to think any benefit is inconsistent and limited at best and probably non-existent (most are based on implausible theories without any reliable efficacy data). The overall chances of off-label prescribing causing harm are significantly greater than for benefit. Identification of drugs and interventions that may be of genuine benefit is a priority but in recent times calls for proposals for plausible candidate treatments have yielded almost nothing. (The only candidate specifically identified was low dose naltrexone, which is now subject to three trials that should report fairly soon.)
 
13. Facilities for consultation online (Telehealth) for situations where people cannot readily access either clinics or domiciliary services.

It's implicit in what you've written, but I wonder if we could specifically mention access to routine care such as vaccinations and preventive screening programmes? Even some moderately affected people miss out on these.

One of the things it's difficult for primary care professionals to grasp is that moderate ME/CFS is a broad and very variable category. There are times when exacerbations / other illnesses push people who'd usually manage to attend a clinic into the severe category, meaning they can't.
 
2. Dedicated nurse practitioner support for ongoing practical care.
Brain bunched so will come back to the full message tomorrow. But just on this point - nurse practitioner might be the right term, but make sure it is. Where I am, conditions like MS, Parkinsons, MND, myaesthenia gravis have Clinical Nurse Specialists, not Advanced Nurse Practitioners. I have heard of an ANP in stroke. But my understanding is that ANPs can be generalists e.g. working in a GP practice. They can also prescribe some drugs, whereas CNSs cannot. And I think ANPs' salaries are higher. I think we want Clinical Nurse Specialists.

We have nurse members who might be able to clarify, or you may have nursing colleagues who can clarify how it works in the UK, though it sounds like the use of these terms may vary between jurisdictions. I found completely contradictory information online about how they differ.
 
I think we want Clinical Nurse Specialists.

Yes, that sounds right. It probably should be specialist nurse but CNS is probably the official title.

It reminds me of the days of nurse consultants. I briefly looked after a labour minister of heath and while chatting I mentioned that it was a pity that to earn a decent salary nurses had to stop being nurses and become administrators (nursing officers) unlike doctors, for whom (practicing) consultant was the highest pay grade. I suggested that a nurse job more like a consultant might be good. WIthin three months it was government policy to have 'Nurse consultants'. It seems someone decided that wasn't quite what was needed subsequently - maybe the nursing officers!
 
10. No provision of (off-label) pharmacological or non-pharmacological treatments without a reliable evidence base, unless as part of well-designed controlled trials.

This is gonna get a lot of (especially severe) people intro trouble. I’ve read multiple stories of patients being held in hospital while for example antihistamines were withheld from them. This can seriously harm ability to get the nutrition needed and cause a flare up of symptoms. So it should at least include a clause of continuation of formerly effective treatment even if off label. Staff there love to go: “let’s first stop all your medication and see if that fixes things” in my experience which can cause real and immediate harm.

Plus to lend a termdeveloped in the aids crisis: isn’t there a right to try? Like shouldn’t patients have the chance to trial LDN or LDA even before big trials are finished for example?
 
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