Beware creating a moral panic about antivaxxers Fiona Fox The Times 2019

[JohnTheJack]

Article by Fiona Fox in The Times today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/beware-creating-a-moral-panic-about-antivaxxers-jqrmhbtf5


Includes this:

The vaccine experts I know are saying what they have been saying for years: that failure to vaccinate is generally a practical or logistical problem. The solution, they claim, is not mandatory vaccination but for the NHS to make sure that services are easy to access and that government invests time and funding into efforts to increase public trust. Sexy and headline grabbing it isn’t. But there is plenty of evidence that it would work.

My inbox this week was packed full of scientists justifiably livid to see newspapers, including this one, once again quoting Andrew Wakefield, the disgraced former doctor whose fraudulent claims that MMR causes autism nearly destroyed the programme. The media should know better. But I fear Wakefield is back in the limelight because the rest of us are in the grip of a moral panic.

This is a familiar theme in the Spiked crowds' view of the world: against anything compulsory, claiming to be on the side of the scientists, seeing everything as a 'moral panic'.

It shows the profound influence of Furedi and shows a similar approach as they have to ME: it's all sociological.

 

[chrisb]

This is a complex subject, beyond me. It is however worth knowing that one line in the pro-vaccine lobby seems to be precisely the same as, and promoted by the same team as created the psychosocial arguments for chronic brucellosis. And see where that left us.

Journal of Psychosomatic Research, Vol. 16, pp. 99 to 101. Pergamon Press, 1972. Printed in Northern Ireland

HYPERSENSITIVE REACTIONS TO IMMUNIZATION
INNOCULATIONS AND ANTECEDENT
PSYCHOLOGICAL VULNERABILITY*

ARTHUR CANTER*, LEIGHTON E. CLUFF'~ and JOHN B. IMBODEN~
(Received 12 October 1971)

IN RECENT years a number of studies have been directed to the relationship between
psychological stress, psychological status and various physiological and hormonal
variations in human subjects [1]. It is also apparent from the psychosomatic literature
that the complaints of illness and the reactions to disease are in some part
determined by the psychological state contemporary with and presumably antecedent
to the period of symptom complaint. The difficulty in evaluating the relationship of
physiological stress that may precipitate the complaint is the tendency to depend
upon measures of the psychological status taken on patients, suffering from medical
and/or psychiatric disease [2]. The present study is an attempt to overcome this
objection by investigating the relationship between psychological vulnerability and
subsequent complaints of hypersensitive reactions to immunization procedures in an
ostensibly normal adult population

 

[Hoopoe]

Furedi has written on CFS, in an article about medicalization. I think this tells me he is writing about things he knows nothing about. Unfortunately sci hub is not working at the moment so I can't read it.

 

[Esther12]

Furedi has written on CFS, in an article about medicalization. I think this tells me he is writing about things he knows nothing about. Unfortunately sci hub is not working at the moment so I can't read it.

I'm not sure I've read that - you got a link to the abstract?

 

[Hoopoe]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02698479

 

[JohnTheJack]

Furedi has written on CFS, in an article about medicalization. I think this tells me he is writing about things he knows nothing about. Unfortunately sci hub is not working at the moment so I can't read it.

https://lunwen.im/
Type in the box:
10.1007/BF02698479

 

[James Morris-Lent]

I know it's a UK article, but in the United States the situation seems quite different from what she describes. Here is data from the Clark County, Washington outbreak:

Here are the details of the 71 confirmed cases:

• Age
  • 1 to 10 years: 52 cases
  • 11 to 18 years: 14 cases
  • 19 to 29 years: one case
  • 30 to 39 years: four cases
• Immunization status
  • Unimmunized: 61 cases
  • Unverified: seven cases
  • 1 MMR vaccine: three cases

(source: https://www.clark.wa.gov/public-health/measles-investigation)

So it is current parents' failure to vaccinate chidren driving things - at least in this outbreak.

I'm not sure what course of action is best in terms of policy. Whether or not you mandate vaccination in any way, you need 'anti-vaxxers' or 'vaccine-reluctant' people to be a pretty small sliver. That would suggest persuasion is a necessary part. Circle-jerk type hate towards these people is probably counterproductive - that is the 'moral panic' that should be avoided.

 

[Annamaria]

Whether or not you mandate vaccination in any way, you need 'anti-vaxxers' or 'vaccine-reluctant' people to be a pretty small sliver.

Why? If vaccines protect the vaccinated, the number of non-vaccinated people is irrelevant to those who are vaccinated. Presumably those who are not vaccinated are so by choice, either their parents' if they are minors, or their own if adults.

 

[Trish]

I haven't followed all of this discussion, so this may have been covered already. I think part of the problem with the personal choice argument is that getting kids vaccinated not only helps to protect them, but it also helps prevent spread of infection to those who for medical reasons can't be vaccinated and babies not yet vaccinated. So not only are the risking their own children getting potentially vey serious illnesses, they are also risk other vulnerable children.

 

[alktipping]

I think the real problem with vaccines is that we except them as for the greater benefits to society but there will also be some people who have very bad medical outcomes from vaccinations . when these bad outcomes occur society abandons that group rather than recognising that their health was sacrificed for the greater good and taking on the responsibility for their wellbeing financial and medical .

 

[Diluted-biscuit]

Why? If vaccines protect the vaccinated, the number of non-vaccinated people is irrelevant to those who are vaccinated. Presumably those who are not vaccinated are so by choice, either their parents' if they are minors, or their own if adults.

The kids not being vaccinated are at risk because of their parents poor decision. There’s also people who cannot have vaccines for genuine medical reasons. Herd immunity needs to be maintained to protect those people, that’s why.

 

[Sean]

Why? If vaccines protect the vaccinated, the number of non-vaccinated people is irrelevant to those who are vaccinated. Presumably those who are not vaccinated are so by choice, either their parents' if they are minors, or their own if adults.

Herd immunity is the real aim of vaccination. Protecting the vaccinated individual is a nice benefit, but not the main aim.

There’s also people who cannot have vaccines for genuine medical reasons.

Also to protect very young children who are not old enough to be fully vaccinated.

 

[Diluted-biscuit]

Also to protect very young children who are not old enough to be fully vaccinated.

That’s a very good point I hadn’t thought of

 

[Snowdrop]

Why? If vaccines protect the vaccinated, the number of non-vaccinated people is irrelevant to those who are vaccinated. Presumably those who are not vaccinated are so by choice, either their parents' if they are minors, or their own if adults.

They don't protect the yet to be born nor the newly born nor the immune compromised. I see it as a social responsibility. I also have read about many young adults who are upset that their parents chose not to have them vaccinated.

I do take on point though @alktippings comment that anyone who might experience a bad outcome should receive whatever medical assistance they need. I think this line of inquiry should not be shut down and there should be better information available that is reliable.

 

[Snow Leopard]

The vaccine experts I know are saying what they have been saying for years: that failure to vaccinate is generally a practical or logistical problem.

This is correct.

The fact is that vaccination rates in most countries is at or near highs and for MMR at least is high enough such that all cases can ultimately be contained before there is an uncontrolled/significant outbreak.

Wakefield's ill-fated study had no noticeable effect on vaccination rates in any country except the UK. The dip in the trend in MMR vaccination rates in the UK in the early 2000s had completely reversed by 2008-2009 or so (due to the work of public health officials).

Antivaxxers didn't need Wakefield's study, for they had already made up their mind.

Secondly, "Unvaccinated" does not necessarily mean antivaxxer. This is an assumption that too many people on the internet seem to make. Only a few percent at most are genuine antivaxxers (people who argue about it on the internet) or conscientious objectors for other reasons (such as religion).

I guess it is easier to demonise people on the internet, than actually examine the social and economic reasons that lead to the bulk of the unvaccinated cases. All the discussion on the internet about how these people are the devil incarnate and how they are wrong (while most of the people telling them they're wrong don't read the literature either) isn't going to do much to change their minds.



It is important not to get too caught up with transient (fine grain) increases or decreases in the vaccination rates data in specific boroughs, because the data lags (this is apparently a particular problem in London) it is the long term trend that matters.

I'd also argue that cuts to the NHS likely make more difference to vaccination rates than other factors. The media likes to talk about middle-wealthy antivaxxers, but the lowest vaccination rates in the UK and USA are often in the poorest communities (who have poorer access to health care) and particularly migrant communities.

The big reason for the resurgence of measles in general was due to the severe vaccine shortages in Ukraine due to their civil war and war with Russia - vaccination rates dropped below 50% for several years, and Ukraine became the incubator for measles in Europe, spreading first to nearby countries and eventually ending up in the UK.

 

[Skycloud]

I remember once (from experience, can't verify, don't remember detail v. well) that what was thought to be a sufficient vaccination schedule wasn't - there was an outbreak of one of the MMR infections when my older children were at junior school/early teens so they all needed an additional jab which became the new routine.

Perhaps this was unusual but it suggested to me that increases in incidence may not always have been due to parents not taking up vaccinations.

My own position is that I believe vaccination of children should be up to the informed choice of parents. It's the responsibility of the health services to persuade. My children were vaccinated (edit didn't both have HPV).


Thank you @Snow Leopard. I wondered if the ant-vaxxer issue was overstated, perhaps it is. It's easy to scapegoat an easy target rather than be nuanced and try to address a more complex situation.

 

[Annamaria]

Could we please have the same level of scientific integrity with regard to vaccination as we demand for ME? Is there any high quality independent research in favour of vaccines? What if the research is the vaccine equivalent of the PACE Trial?

 

[Snow Leopard]

Could we please have the same level of scientific integrity with regard to vaccination as we demand for ME? Is there any high quality independent research in favour of vaccines?

There is very strong evidence that vaccinations work. The evidence is simple, compare the rates of child mortality due to vaccine preventable illnesses over time as vaccine schedules were adopted and improved.

There are risks of course, specifically rare cases of autoimmune illnesses are temporally associated with certain vaccines (Guillain–Barré syndrome (odds of between 1/100,000 and 1/1,000,000 doses depending on the vaccine), Autoimmune thrombocytopenic pupura etc).

The key is for medical systems to respond quickly to such illnesses, and for societies to commit to providing care when there are long term consequences, rather than outright denying association and being reluctant to investigate or admit a possible association (and failing to notify health authorities) when hearing that acute symptoms develop shortly after a vaccine. I am specifically mentioning this as that has been my personal experience (Guillain–Barré syndrome a few weeks after a vaccination, and with no sign/symptoms of an infection). The long term consequences of Guillain–Barré syndrome are only given minimal study in the medical literature, with CFS like symptoms being a common long term consequence.

 

[Annamaria]

There is very strong evidence that vaccinations work. The evidence is simple, compare the rates of child mortality due to vaccine preventable illnesses over time as vaccine schedules were adopted and improved

By far the greatest decline in such diseases occurred before the relevant vaccines were introduced, due to improvements in sanitation, nutrition and living standards.

 

[Annamaria]

There are risks of course, specifically rare cases of autoimmune illnesses are temporally associated with certain vaccines (Guillain–Barré syndrome (odds of between 1/100,000 and 1/1,000,000 doses depending on the vaccine), Autoimmune thrombocytopenic pupura etc).

The cognitive development of a child of a client of mine ceased from the MMR vaccination. The end result was an adult with the brain of an 18 month old and a family destroyed.