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Can a blood flow enhancer help our symptoms ?

Discussion in 'Treating POTS and Orthostatic Intolerance' started by Dechi, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I hope this hasn’t been posted already. I saw this today and thought it looked promising. Not a cure, but maybe a 30% relief possible of certain symptoms, such as dizziness and fibro pain.

    At 400$-500$, I would be ready to try it.

    What do you think of it ? Has anyone tried it, or something similar ?

    (Sorry I don’t know how to embed the original text like some people do).

    https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2..._2Dkg2oNjJld9HOdqarn47otjlCO5cQEhP7H72SR6iwNs
     
  2. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    From the Health Rising article linked to above here is their explanation of what a 'blood flow enhancer' is:
    It seems to be based on the idea that physical stimulation to the sole of the feet triggers a reflex response in the calf muscles that acts like a pump 'enhancing' blood flow.
     
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  3. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    You can get foot vibrators that you use when you're sitting down for a lot less than $500. This reads like an advertisement to me.

    The idea seems to be to stimulate the calf muscle to contract so it pushes blood and other fluid that accumulates in the legs back to the heart. Raising your feet above heart level would achieve that too, wearing compression stockings can help.

    I guess if you have to sit for long periods it might be useful.
    I'm skeptical.

    And the research was done with FM patients who don't get PEM.
    I think stimulating our muscles to contract would count as exercise and could trigger PEM.
     
  4. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am not sure that there is any logical reason why passively induced activity in the body should effect ME or Fibro any differently to consciously initiated voluntary movement.

    If the physically activity is of sufficient duration and intensity to trigger such as PEM then presumably it will do so regardless of whether it is an involuntary reflex or consciously initiated.

    It may be that the level of muscle activity induced for some is below their threshold for inducing adverse effects, but for others for example severe ME or those with POTS it is potentially likely to be above their threshold for exertion induced negative consequences.

    Possibly there is a disproportionate increase in circulation for relatively little physically activity, that is you get a cardiac response without aerobic exercise with this devise. Possibly then for some they get a cardiac benefit from this 'exercise' that is below their 'doing too much' threshold. However given we do not fully understand the causes of ME, would increased blood flow necessarily impact on our symptoms?

    [edited for grammar]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
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  5. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Given that there is some research support for gentle exercise helping Fibromyalgia (disclaimer, I have not looked at this research so can not be certain that it is any better than the appalling GET research in ME) it is possible that the gentle exercise induced by such a device is helpful for people with Fibro.

    However given that Fibro and ME are different conditions with different symptom sets, one difference as @Trish points out being PEM, this would seem to be a situation where it is particularly unsafe to generalise from research on Fibro to people with ME.
     
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  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, this is an advert, like a lot of Health Rising stuff. It is not worth a cent.
     
  7. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That’s too bad, the idea of augmenting blood flow was appealing. In my case I have no doubt it’s a big part of the problem.

    And since many of us have both ME and fibro, even though it wasn’t successfully tested with PWME, it could have had potential benefits.

    Oh well, just another disappointment then.
     
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  8. Binkie4

    Binkie4 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I too am convinced that blood flow is part of the issue with me which is why I am interested in Les Simpson’s work on the haemorrological properties of blood, now being followed up by the OMF.

    I cannot see that this piece of equipment will help if the red blood cells are not as pliable as they should be. The red blood cells will still be stiff and so unable to get through the capillaries and carry the oxygen where it is needed even if the blood flow is being enhanced.

    Looking forward to further research in this area.
     
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  9. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is there anything he won't hawk.
    Does it never occur to him that if everything worked as well as he states it does we would all be functioning normally by now?
     
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  10. inox

    inox Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yeah, not buying into that, it's still activation of muscles, and likely to cause detoriation in ME-patients. Also, I'm generally not tolerating vibrations well at all.
     
  11. andypants

    andypants Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My stepdad has something like it because of his significant issues with circulation in his legs. It didn’t help him at all, and triggered PEM for me when I tried it.
     
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  12. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Marketing much?

    One needs to be wary of devices that cost a lot of money, haven’t really passed blinded clinical trials and the claims that they make, specifically when this one device can help several diseases all at once. Never a good sign.

    There is a market for desperate people.
     
  13. Sunshine3

    Sunshine3 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Cort does a lot of good work explaining latest research findings, I look forward to his updates. He provides a great service to our community.. 'Is there anything he won't hawk' seems a bit harsh.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  14. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm sorry if i offend you but he hawks/hypes almost everything, even things that contradict each other.
    I get that he means well, but he is more a salesman then scientist.

    I don't take his posts very seriously because everything is hyped wheter it deserves it or not and i'm more interested in substance and not having to figure out from his posts whats realistic and whats hype. And he is good at sucking others into his world which is even more headache.
    I wish him well but he has not earned the respect of having a critical eye and parsing the wheat from the chaff.
     
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  15. Sunshine3

    Sunshine3 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not offended @Alvin, just don't agree. While he might be very enthusiastic at times, some patients like myself need that and appreciate it. God knows there's enough of crap going on in the M.E world, it's wearing. So a bit of a lift every now and then goes down well with me... even if slightly exaggerated. We can go the other way on here as well where it's all doom and gloom and u just feel like jumping into a hole!
     
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  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I've never come across any instance where Cort has sold anything on his site, or through his blog articles (apart from some Amazon affiliate links on the site, and a donations scheme — which this forum also has). So I am not sure why you say Cort hawks everything.



    There is a difference between enthusiasm and hype. I see a lot of enthusiasm in Cort's articles, but not hype.
     
  17. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Perhaps thats where we differ, i don't like exaggeration, i like accurate.
    I very much agree that this condition and its lack of scientific progress is wearing but my personal philosophy has always been to face things head on and understand how things really work. I don't like hype.

    Let me rephrase hawk to hype.

    So your going to buy this device?
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If were $20 rather than $400 I perhaps would not mind trying it, to see if it might help my POTS a bit. I can't imagine it will have any dramatic benefits though.


    At the moment my strategy for ameliorating POTS while seated is to sit semi-cross legged, in a semi-yoga lotus pose.

    I am too stiff these days to do a full lotus pose, but I can manage one calf and foot resting on the chair, and the other calf down as normal, with the foot on the floor. That pose then reduces the vertical extent of my body to a degree, and helps get more blood into the brain. I find myself naturally adopting this pose every time I sit, including when sitting down to eat.



    It did occur to me that such a vibrating device, if it helps circulate blood in the legs, might be useful in aircraft to help prevent deep-vein thrombosis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  19. Daisybell

    Daisybell Moderator Staff Member

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    I’m fairly certain that a device like this would make me feel very unwell very quickly. Travel in a car or train where there is vibration makes me feel awful. It’s not motion sickness - that’s a different feeling. It’s the feeling of being shaken around that completely wipes me out.
     
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  20. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But its cost effective, the article says so and there is no hype as you say
     

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