Daratumumab, isatuximab (CD38 drugs)

Polyclonal IgG levels remained unchanged, which may be explained by a subset of normal PC with reduced CD38 expression that survived during daratumumab therapy.

That is a pretty striking finding. It seems to suggest that if daratumumab has any efficacy in ME/CFS it is not due to killing plasma cells!

But IGG did go down in Fluge et al.

I wondered that. So things do not necessarily go as pear-shaped as it seemed.

That paper's cohort are patients with myeloma, and they are characterised as extensively pre-treated. Could a reduced CD38 expression on plasma cells more generally be an environmental effect (eg a precursor requirement) before you can even get to the clonal expansion seen in myeloma?

Ie is it possible this observation is not relevant to the ME/CFS context, whose plasma cells are presumptively normal, but just happen to be producing pathological immunoglobulins that we'd like to get rid of?
 
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From Leo Habets. Translated from German.

Attempted to treat twelve patients already. Patients are so desperate so not going to pretend like this was not somewhat expected, but incredibly worrying.
Is he using the same dosing schedule as the trials? Has he at least checked NK numbers before dosing patients?

I don't approve of his methods but if what he's saying is true that is a bit worrying.

Isn't he using sub clinical doses of teclistamab when he prescribes that anyway?
 
I don't approve of his methods but if what he's saying is true that is a bit worrying.
I don't think so. There's a strong indication that he has no idea what he's doing or saying so I wouldn't put much value into his observations whether they are negative or positive.

Besides that we have no idea what condition the patients he treats have, maybe they have the spike protein disease he claims he's showed in his patients or the GPCR-aab disease he's claimed to shown to exist or is it the disease he's already cured so many times with Ronapreve? If he can't interpret tests but sees these tests as crucial part of diagnosis what do you end up with?
 
I don't think so. There's a strong indication that he has no idea what he's doing or saying so I wouldn't put much value into his observations whether they are negative or positive.

Besides that we have no idea what condition the patients he treats have, maybe they have the spike protein disease he claims he's showed in his patients or the GPCR-aab disease he's claimed to shown to exist or is it the disease he's already cured so many times with Ronapreve? If he can't interpret tests but sees these tests as crucial part of diagnosis what do you end up with?

Just nonsense from him. Sadly he makes these bizarre and seemingly random statements with such assuredness that he is able to convince desperate patients to roll the dice.

I also know that we shouldn`t conclude anything from the P1 study. But it was the ´´healthier`` patients who increased their self-reported scores and steps, and if I had to venture a guess as to what kind of patient would be desperate enough to contact Hebets for an extremely expensive and unproven treatment...
 
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Just nonsense from him. Sadly he makes these bizarre and seemingly random statements with such assuredness that he is able to convince desperate patients to roll the dice.

I also know that we shouldn`t conclude anything from the P1 study. But it was the ´´healthier`` patients who increased their self-reported scores and steps, and if I had to venture a guess as to what kind of patient would be desperate enough to contact Hebets for an extremely expensive and unproven treatment...
So there is no solution for the most severe cases... even the small hope offered by anti-CD38 therapy is closed to bedridden patients. Yet, among the six people helped by Daratumumab, one patient had been suffering for 35 years.
 
So there is no solution for the most severe cases... even the small hope offered by anti-CD38 therapy is closed to bedridden patients. Yet, among the six people helped by Daratumumab, one patient had been suffering for 35 years.
We have no idea yet about how severity might affect any response to Dara (if it actually works). And it wasn’t even tested on the very severe.
 
Habets starts off w a lower dose too — which he says is for safety — but JE mentioned that it can cause anti drug antibodies (or something) which can then cause the drug to not work.
Sounds like Habets' anecdata is worth less than nothing in that case.

Can anyone link me to JE's comment about this?

it was the ´´healthier`` patients who increased their self-reported scores and steps
All patients were at least moderate though. The two (i think) severe patients didnt respond but nor did 3 moderate, and what they had in common was low NK cells. I don't think we can draw any conclusions from that about whether it works for severe patients.

If Habets is using the drug in a way that makes it likely not to be effective his anecdotes should just be ignored.
 
Is he using the same dosing schedule as the trials? Has he at least checked NK numbers before dosing patients?

I don't approve of his methods but if what he's saying is true that is a bit worrying.

Isn't he using sub clinical doses of teclistamab when he prescribes that anyway?
I have asked Habets in every single tweet he made, I reply him to ask why didn’t he test NK cells and he NEVER responds.

It’s possible the 9/12 had low NK cells. Like <100.

I don’t know why he pushes teclistamab so hard. Maybe he wants to be the guy that pioneered Tecli just like FM pioneered Dara.

What’s worse is he just ignores alll the questions on NK cells.
 
Sounds like Habets' anecdata is worth less than nothing in that case.

Can anyone link me to JE's comment about this?
Moreover, serious adverse reactions (including fatal ones) can occur with monoclonals even with small doses. they tend not to be dose dependent. And small doses may produce an anti-drug response that makes further use ineffective.
 
Ok, so some research, it seems Iberdomide is the top of my list for NK cell enhancing drugs.

 
Jonathan Edwards said:
Moreover, serious adverse reactions (including fatal ones) can occur with monoclonals even with small doses. they tend not to be dose dependent. And small doses may produce an anti-drug response that makes further use ineffective.
Awful to think of the possibility that, in the unlikely event Dara is the "big one," if a clinician should give a pwME an inadequate dose, that person would not only be at risk of dying from it, but could have any hope of recovery destroyed even as pwME all around them recover fully. Truly nightmare fuel, even over and above the horror we all deal with already.
 
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Polyclonal IgG levels remained unchanged, which may be explained by a subset of normal PC with reduced CD38 expression that survived during daratumumab therapy.

That is a pretty striking finding. It seems to suggest that if daratumumab has any efficacy in ME/CFS it is not due to killing plasma cells!

I have been researching daratumumab and isatuximab with the help of Gemini (AI). It says CD38 consumes NAD+ and inhibiting CD38 might restore energy production.

Is this a plausible theory?

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS) research has increasingly focused on immune dysregulation and metabolic dysfunction. The interest in daratumumab and isatuximab represents a pivot from previous B-cell depletion strategies (like rituximab) toward targeting CD38, a molecule expressed on long-lived plasma cells and involved in energy metabolism.
The following analysis details the mechanisms of action for these drugs and their theoretical and investigational roles in ME/CFS.

1. The Core Rationale: Why CD38?​

To understand why these drugs are being explored, it is necessary to look at the failure of previous trials.[1]
    • The Rituximab Context: Large trials (RituxME) using rituximab (anti-CD20) failed to show benefit in ME/CFS.[1] Rituximab effectively depletes "upstream" B-cells but does not touch long-lived plasma cells (which reside in the bone marrow and secrete antibodies for decades) because these cells do not express CD20.
    • The CD38 Shift: If ME/CFS is driven by autoantibodies produced by these long-lived plasma cells, rituximab would naturally fail to stop the production. CD38 is highly expressed on these plasma cells.[1] Therefore, daratumumab and isatuximab are used to target the specific cell population that rituximab missed.[1]

2. Mechanism of Action (MOA): Daratumumab vs. Isatuximab​

While both drugs are monoclonal antibodies targeting CD38, they interact with the molecule differently.[1][2][3] This distinction is critical for their potential effects in ME/CFS.

Daratumumab (Darzalex)

Daratumumab binds to a specific epitope on CD38 and recruits the immune system to kill the target cell. Its efficacy relies heavily on the patient's own immune competence.
    • Antibody-Dependent Cellular Cytotoxicity (ADCC): This is the primary mechanism. The drug coats the plasma cell, acting as a "flag" for Natural Killer (NK) cells to attack and destroy it.[1]
        • Relevance to ME/CFS: In the recent pilot study by Fluge et al., clinical response was correlated with baseline NK cell levels.[1] Patients with low NK cell function (a common finding in ME/CFS) responded poorly, likely because the drug couldn't work effectively without "helper" cells.[1]
    • Complement-Dependent Cytotoxicity (CDC): Triggers the complement cascade to punch holes in the cell membrane.
    • Antibody-Dependent Cellular Phagocytosis (ADCP): Encourages macrophages to "eat" the target cells.
    • Enzymatic Effect: It is a weak inhibitor of CD38’s enzymatic activity.

Isatuximab (Sarclisa)

Isatuximab binds to a completely different epitope on CD38 and possesses unique "direct" mechanisms that daratumumab lacks.[3]
    • Direct Apoptosis: Isatuximab can force the cell to self-destruct (apoptosis) without needing cross-linking or help from effector cells like NK cells.
        • Relevance to ME/CFS: This could theoretically make isatuximab effective even in ME/CFS patients with varying or poor NK cell function, overcoming the limitation seen with daratumumab.[1]
    • Potent Enzymatic Inhibition: Isatuximab is a strong allosteric inhibitor of CD38's "ecto-enzymatic" function. It stops CD38 from consuming NAD+.[1]

3. Theoretical & Clinical Analysis in ME/CFS​

The application of these drugs in ME/CFS relies on two major hypotheses: the Autoimmune (Antibody) hypothesis and the Metabolic (NAD+) hypothesis.

A. The Autoimmune Hypothesis (Targeting Plasma Cells)

    • Mechanism: The drugs deplete the long-lived plasma cells in the bone marrow. This halts the production of pathogenic autoantibodies (e.g., against G-protein coupled receptors like adrenergic or muscarinic receptors).[1]
    • Evidence: The recent Norwegian pilot study (Fluge et al.) using daratumumab showed that approximately 50-60% of patients responded with significant symptom improvement.
    • IgG4 Connection: The study noted a reduction in IgG4 subclass antibodies.[4] IgG4 is often associated with fibrotic and inflammatory conditions; its reduction might alleviate vascular or tissue-level inflammation in ME/CFS.

B. The Metabolic Hypothesis (Restoring NAD+)

    • The Problem: CD38 is not just a receptor; it is an enzyme (NADase) that consumes NAD+ (Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide).[1] NAD+ is essential for mitochondrial energy production.[1] In conditions of chronic inflammation or aging, CD38 levels rise, potentially stripping cells of the NAD+ they need to make energy (ATP).[1]
    • The Solution: By blocking CD38, these drugs may stop the degradation of NAD+, thereby restoring cellular energy metabolism.[1]
    • Isatuximab's Advantage: Because isatuximab is a much more potent inhibitor of this enzymatic activity than daratumumab, it is theoretically the superior drug for addressing the "metabolic" aspect of ME/CFS.[1] If the disease is driven by an "NAD+ sink" caused by immune activation, isatuximab would plug that sink more effectively.[1]

4. Summary Comparison for ME/CFS​

FeatureDaratumumabIsatuximab
Primary TargetCD38 (Epitope A)CD38 (Epitope B)
Main Killing MechanismImmune-mediated (ADCC). Requires functional NK cells.[1]Direct Apoptosis + Immune-mediated (ADCC).
Dependence on NK CellsHigh. Low NK function predicts failure.[1]Lower. Can kill directly without effector cells.[1]
Metabolic EffectWeak inhibition of NADase.Potent inhibition of NADase (preserves NAD+).[1]
Clinical Status in ME/CFSPilot Study: ~50% response rate.[1][5]Theoretical: No specific ME/CFS trials yet.[4]
Best Theoretical FitPatients with "Autoimmune" phenotype (high antibodies, normal NK cells).[1]Patients with "Metabolic" phenotype (low NAD+) or low NK function.[1]

Conclusion​

The mechanism of action for these drugs in ME/CFS is likely bimodal:
    • Immunological: Removing the "factory" (plasma cells) that produces harmful autoantibodies.[1]
    • Metabolic: inhibiting the CD38 enzyme to conserve NAD+, thereby improving mitochondrial energy production.[1]
Currently, daratumumab has clinical proof-of-concept in a subgroup of patients (likely those with sufficient NK cell function to mediate the drug's effect). Isatuximab remains unexplored clinically in ME/CFS but offers a scientifically compelling alternative due to its ability to induce direct cell death (bypassing NK cell dysfunction) and its superior ability to protect NAD+ levels.
 
I have been researching daratumumab and isatuximab with the help of Gemini (AI). It says CD38 consumes NAD+ and inhibiting CD38 might restore energy production.

Is this a plausible theory?

I don't think so. I cannot see how it would 'restore energy production'. It might reduce energy 'wastage' via CD38 but I very much doubt there is any significant 'wastage'. CD38 isn't just there to waste precious NAD. CD38 is involved in cells becoming more active rather than less as I understand it.

I think AI is likely to be totally misleading on this sort of question. When I recently looked up the gene CA10, AI said it was on chromosome 10 presumably because the nomenclature C10 is used to indicate that. But CA10 is on C17. If it makes mistakes as trivial as that it isn't much use. And when it comes to theories it just picks up whatever is floating around in Twitter space as far as I can see.
 
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