Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Vogt is now declaring the IOM panel to have been biased by patient input:
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Henrik Vogt: IOM review panel biased by patient influence
- Thread starter Indigophoton
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Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It's certainly not about patient empowerment. Between the denial of patients' experienced reality regarding over-exertion, and sectioning, some BPS advocates clearly believe they know what's good for us better than we do.
Jonathan Edwards
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Something of the Ouroboros about Vogt.
A tip for those wanting to specialise in 'psychological ailments'.
Don't present yourself as a complete arsehole who hates patients.
(I suspect the penny has dropped for some in England, but not all.)
A tip for those wanting to specialise in 'psychological ailments'.
Don't present yourself as a complete arsehole who hates patients.
(I suspect the penny has dropped for some in England, but not all.)
.
Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Vogt thinks emotion and bias and careful research are not necessarily separable. Oh wait - that's the problem the BPS crew are having
. This tweet really suggests a lack of understanding of the scientific method.
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Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Sasha
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I'm also wondering why we'd be interested in what this guy says. He seems impervious both to fact and reason.
According to his Twitter page:
He just sounds like some random doctor. Why would his opinion in particular be of interest?
According to his Twitter page:
Medical doctor. Phd. History and Philosophy of Medicine. General practice. P4 medicine. Precision medicine. Some tweets in Norwegian, more and more in English.
He just sounds like some random doctor. Why would his opinion in particular be of interest?
Kalliope
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
He has founded a "patient organisation" - "Recovery Norge" together with LP coach Live Landmark for patients who have made themselves better by their own efforts. As a medical doctor and part of a patient organisation people actually listen to him. In fact, the national center of excellence in CFS/ME invited them for a lecture - same center that was thrilled by the SMILE-trial..
Edit To Add: I first noticed his name in 2011 when he wrote a letter-to-the-editor in a big newspaper together with prof Wyller (who is studying music therapy as a treatment for ME and wants to do a study on LP and ME, very pro biopsychosocial approach and not keen on strict criteria for ME). Their letter was about how you can't divide humans into "physiological" and "psychological" which nobody disagrees with anyway.
The question is within which medical discipline does ME belong?
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Sasha
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Kalliope
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Yeah.. we have some excellent researchers in Norway, but don't think the situation here is swell because of that. There are a lot of people who believe Vogt is making a lot of sense. "Listen to those who recovered, not those who are still sick".
Edit to add: The journal for the Norwegian medical association recently had a big celebratory profile interview of him..
Edit to add: The journal for the Norwegian medical association recently had a big celebratory profile interview of him..
Barry
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I think Vogt's disorder is well beyond a simple inability to understand science. More an inability to understand humanity. And he's a doctor responsible for patients.
Kalliope
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
From the interview with Vogt in the Journal for the Norwegian Medical Association (google translation) from January this year. It is written by Elisabeth Swensen, a municipality GP who has downright bullied ME-patients on twitter.
"Listen to those who have been fresh" was the headline of a chronicle in Aftenposten in September. Henrik Vogt was a writer with 45 members in Recovery Norway, a network for patients who have become healthy by so-called medically unexplained, often called functional disorders. Chronic fatigue is the most known of them. The entrance fee for Recovery Norway is a patient experience. The aim of the network is to contribute to hope and understanding in a situation where there is a lot of darkness and theories that you are affected by bodily defects. Henrik Vogt is the network's initiator and one who has become well.
He has a past in rock band. 14 years old, he really discovered the AC / DC hardrock band and bought all the releases. In the song Thunderstruck sings AC / DC «Thunder, Thunder, Thunder, Thunder / I was caught / in the middle of a railroad track». Henrik Vogt knows how it is. For a short period of time, in the early 20's, he was locked in an earsus that was driving him out of the sense.
"The ear sores came while I first started taking medicine for a very stressful period.Occasionally I was walking with ear plugs out of people, something that is not uncommon for those who struggle with this. You think you have to protect your ears. I stopped listening to music, one of my greatest pleasures. All the time I thought "Is the sound there now?", "Is that the sound from the dishwasher or from my ear?". I got disaster thoughts. The perfectionist in me said that "you can not live a life with an imperfect body." It sounds ridiculous, but it was claustrophobic.Fortunately, I did not get to an ear nose throat specialist who would at worst have linked me to understanding myself as a patient with an ear injury.
- Then you got well?
- I can still hear the sound. But it does not have the same meaning. All people have sound in their ears. How did I get well? On the phone directory's Yellow Pages, I highlighted "tinnitus". When I found a name on my own address, I wondered if I had become psychotic. But the only one who ran with this, Atle Rønning Arnesen, actually lived in the floor below me. I slipped into the slippers and hit a wise man.One conversation was enough. He demolished the problem, and then he said, "Start for God's sake to listen to music again!". It's basics to make the brain change focus and turn a vicious circle of fear and increasing symptom focus.
- Why should healthy patients organize themselves?
- Patients are on an understanding that is important. It is the source of good research. Patients often disappear from the radar when they get healthy, they only want to live their lives in peace. In addition, they are subjected to sanctions, partly to harassment, from those who are still ill. This will make a huge blind spot in patient involvement. Both researchers and health policy makers get a skewed picture of the conditions this is about. The sick sets the agenda for what to research and what measures should be supported.
- What reactions has the network met in the medical profession and the authorities?
- Very few. Maybe we do not fit so well. I am very provoked by people - both colleagues and patients - who actively let us down. First, these patients are told that they are ill ill. Then they are told that they are well-behaved. Giving healthy people legitimate hope may well be good social medicine.
"Listen to those who have been fresh" was the headline of a chronicle in Aftenposten in September. Henrik Vogt was a writer with 45 members in Recovery Norway, a network for patients who have become healthy by so-called medically unexplained, often called functional disorders. Chronic fatigue is the most known of them. The entrance fee for Recovery Norway is a patient experience. The aim of the network is to contribute to hope and understanding in a situation where there is a lot of darkness and theories that you are affected by bodily defects. Henrik Vogt is the network's initiator and one who has become well.
He has a past in rock band. 14 years old, he really discovered the AC / DC hardrock band and bought all the releases. In the song Thunderstruck sings AC / DC «Thunder, Thunder, Thunder, Thunder / I was caught / in the middle of a railroad track». Henrik Vogt knows how it is. For a short period of time, in the early 20's, he was locked in an earsus that was driving him out of the sense.
"The ear sores came while I first started taking medicine for a very stressful period.Occasionally I was walking with ear plugs out of people, something that is not uncommon for those who struggle with this. You think you have to protect your ears. I stopped listening to music, one of my greatest pleasures. All the time I thought "Is the sound there now?", "Is that the sound from the dishwasher or from my ear?". I got disaster thoughts. The perfectionist in me said that "you can not live a life with an imperfect body." It sounds ridiculous, but it was claustrophobic.Fortunately, I did not get to an ear nose throat specialist who would at worst have linked me to understanding myself as a patient with an ear injury.
- Then you got well?
- I can still hear the sound. But it does not have the same meaning. All people have sound in their ears. How did I get well? On the phone directory's Yellow Pages, I highlighted "tinnitus". When I found a name on my own address, I wondered if I had become psychotic. But the only one who ran with this, Atle Rønning Arnesen, actually lived in the floor below me. I slipped into the slippers and hit a wise man.One conversation was enough. He demolished the problem, and then he said, "Start for God's sake to listen to music again!". It's basics to make the brain change focus and turn a vicious circle of fear and increasing symptom focus.
- Why should healthy patients organize themselves?
- Patients are on an understanding that is important. It is the source of good research. Patients often disappear from the radar when they get healthy, they only want to live their lives in peace. In addition, they are subjected to sanctions, partly to harassment, from those who are still ill. This will make a huge blind spot in patient involvement. Both researchers and health policy makers get a skewed picture of the conditions this is about. The sick sets the agenda for what to research and what measures should be supported.
- What reactions has the network met in the medical profession and the authorities?
- Very few. Maybe we do not fit so well. I am very provoked by people - both colleagues and patients - who actively let us down. First, these patients are told that they are ill ill. Then they are told that they are well-behaved. Giving healthy people legitimate hope may well be good social medicine.
Jonathan Edwards
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I think he reveals the psychology of the BPS way of thinking in a naive way that others may not.
It is interesting to compare with homeopathy the central tenet of BPS (which he expounds rather clearly)
1. Reductive physical explanations are full of holes.
2. Emotional mental explanations are full of holes.
3. The inspired solution: use both at once!
(And make sure nobody quite knows which one you are using when.)
Indigophoton
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I feel for him that he suffered, but this does go some way to explaining the problem he has with us: he catastrophized, so he thinks everyone else is doing the same.