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Human to human lyme transmission paper sought

Discussion in 'Infections: Lyme, Candida, EBV ...' started by yME, Nov 2, 2021.

  1. yME

    yME Established Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    51
    I am looking for a paper that I recall covered sexual transmission. I know it was from Canada using dark field microscopy and staining?

    Why is dark field not used as a test for chronic Lyme rather than the erratic PCR or Blot tests?

    The background is a genetic specialist I hoped would look at my durcums mentioned it could be caused by lyme without knowing any family history here in the uk. I would like to forward a link to the paper to progress this possibility in my families case.
     
    Ash, DokaGirl, Starlight and 3 others like this.
  2. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    2,808
    Location:
    UK
    Google gave me these:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8163173/

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2015.1081056

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5482345/

    Obviously not sure whether they're what you're looking for?

    I recommend Prof Vaughan Keeley as a UK specialist in fat disorders if you need a consultant. His clinic was fantastic, and really illustrated just how much better ME clinics could be if you put together teams that have a deep interest in the condition, listen to patients, and are genuinely committed to research and improving services.
     
    Hutan, alktipping, yME and 3 others like this.
  3. Arvo

    Arvo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    348
    I once asked a similar question (how this paper's author was able to detect the bacteria in - I believe it was semen and vaginal mucus?); the answer was that labs don't work with dark field microscopes anymore for detection. They used to detect syphilis this way (also a spirochete), but then a blood test was developed, and they ditched the microscopes for that cause.


    Good luck with finding the paper! I know which one you mean, but I have no idea who the authors are unfortunately.
     
    alktipping, yME, Ash and 4 others like this.
  4. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    40,156
    Location:
    UK
    Hutan, alktipping, yME and 4 others like this.
  5. yME

    yME Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    51
    Plenty for me to consider, thank you all. Prof Keeley is reported to be looking at genetics re lymphedema / fat disorders so perhaps another angle I could pursue with the genetic specialist as I do not fit into those typical categories.
    We here agree with the sentiment regarding what a successful team can bring to health care having recently become acquainted with the cancer breast unit. The difference to the ME unit is jaw dropping.. it is not so much a cost issue as the staff just being willing to offer wide ranging support and availability. It opened our eyes to how we have been abused and gaslighted for our ME diagnosis.

    I would like to get parts of our family tested using dark field microscope technology as it seems more definitive. We had some PCR Blot done privately which were then dismissed by the gp and an immunology consultant as the standard uk test was negative of course. I had a spirochete reported as part of another procedure and positive PCR.

    So anybody got any ideas on competent labs? Or is this another rabbit hole?
     
    alktipping and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    11,221
    Location:
    London, UK
    From what I have seen of the literature and comments recently this dark field technique sounds as if it may be a scam. Finding things that look like spiral organisms under dark field is likely to be pretty unreliable I think. Nowadays things are done with the specific controls provided by molecular biological or immunological techniques.
     
    Ariel, FMMM1, alktipping and 2 others like this.
  7. yME

    yME Established Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
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    could you please simplify if possible?

    in regards the possible scam, this could explain why the eu are spending money for an improved lyme test suggesting dark field is perhaps not definitive? However, way back in 2000 I had a nhs colonoscopy with a report of motile spirochete detected. I had assumed somebody peered down a microscope at the biopsy sample saw movement and investigated. Is this being very naive? Yet from Arvo’s post syphilis was historically detected optically why not lyme bacteria? I guess the staining and florescence under different wavelengths might be the answer.
     
    Joan Crawford, Ash, 5vforest and 2 others like this.
  8. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
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    DNA (PCR) tests and immunology tests are very specific because they use negative controls to ensure you are identifying a particular organism. Microscopy is useful as a screen to see if there is anything there but youth need a specific test to tell if it means anything.

    Dark field is the opposite of definitive. It is just a crude screening test.
     
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  9. 5vforest

    5vforest Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    198
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Potentially of note, a new approach to microscopy-based diagnosis of Lyme: https://lymediagnostics.com/

    I don't know anything beyond what is posted on their website.
     
    Peter Trewhitt, Joan Crawford and Ash like this.
  10. Joan Crawford

    Joan Crawford Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
    Warton, Carnforth, Lancs, UK
    Thanks for sharing this. Patients and their doctors need reliable tests for Lyme and especially chronic Lyme infection. Only then will we get a handle on how common it is and how many people are misdiagnosed.
     
    Peter Trewhitt and Trish like this.
  11. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
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    That looks like the dark field approach that has come in for criticism.
    The webpage is not very encouraging.
     
    FMMM1 and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  12. 5vforest

    5vforest Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
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    To me it looks like this is an "upgraded" version of the dark field approach that tries to avoid the common pitfalls.

    Some quotes from their site:

     
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  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Location:
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    Countless investigations were carried out with DualDur, while carefully observing and recording clinical symptoms, and performing 110,000 serological tests to back up the diagnosis.

    That sounds like money talking, not a scientific lab.
    There are no publications on PubMed mentioning DualDur in the title.
    I cannot find any quality control studies on the net.
     
  14. Milo

    Milo Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    1,783
    There is truly a market for desperate people, patients ready to dish out tens of thousands of dollars to buy hope of a diagnosis and recovery of whatever ails them.

    Those who take money from patients know this and are willing to bend the science to please them or to instil a bit of hope, just so they come back again and swipe their credit card again.
     
    Peter Trewhitt likes this.
  15. 5vforest

    5vforest Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    198
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    I’m not here to defend the DualDur people, but is worth noting that basically everyone agrees that Lyme diagnostics are totally bunk, and that we need better tests. The US government is investing (not enough) money in this, and the DualDur project looks to have had some EU funding.
     
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