Hypothesis piece by Amy Proal, a microbiologist with ME/CFS

Yes, I believe the effect of angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) like Benicar on the VDR has not been demonstrated empirically, but only in silico studies involving computer modeling of the molecular interactions of ARB drugs and the vitamin D receptor, done by Marshall and colleagues. I don't know anything about such molecular modeling, and how reliable it is.



It's interesting that ARB drugs (which are just regular blood pressure drugs) have very weird Herx-like effects when given to patients with certain chronic diseases, including sarcoidosis and ME/CFS.

Medicine already knew about the weird effects of ARBs in patients with certain chronic diseases (I can't find a reference to this ARB phenomenon at the moment).

It's the strange reaction to ARBs in patients with chronic diseases that Marshall became fascinated with, and I believe this led to his investigation of the VDR in sarcoidosis. I think eventually he then came up with this idea of the intracellular bacteria linked to sarcoidosis turning off the VDR for immune evasion purposes, and Benicar switching it back on again, thus leading to a sudden immune response against these bacteria.

Marshall called these weird effects the "immunopathology" symptoms of the Marshall Protocol (like exacerbation of existing symptoms, fever, pain, body aches, light sensitivity requiring dark glasses); but these effects are not specific to the Marshall Protocol; as I understand it, they are what ARBs cause in patients with chronic diseases.

Yes, I believe the effect of angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) like Benicar on the VDR has not been demonstrated empirically, but only in silico studies involving computer modeling of the molecular interactions of ARB drugs and the vitamin D receptor, done by Marshall and colleagues. I don't know anything about such molecular modeling, and how reliable it is.



It's interesting that ARB drugs (which are just regular blood pressure drugs) have very weird Herx-like effects when given to patients with certain chronic diseases, including sarcoidosis and ME/CFS.

Medicine already knew about the weird effects of ARBs in patients with certain chronic diseases (I can't find a reference to this ARB phenomenon at the moment).

It's the strange reaction to ARBs in patients with chronic diseases that Marshall became fascinated with, and I believe this led to his investigation of the VDR in sarcoidosis. I think eventually he then came up with this idea of the intracellular bacteria linked to sarcoidosis turning off the VDR for immune evasion purposes, and Benicar switching it back on again, thus leading to a sudden immune response against these bacteria.

Marshall called these weird effects the "immunopathology" symptoms of the Marshall Protocol (like exacerbation of existing symptoms, fever, pain, body aches, light sensitivity requiring dark glasses); but these effects are not specific to the Marshall Protocol; as I understand it, they are what ARBs cause in patients with chronic diseases.
In the Marshall Protocol, you are taking the drug Benicar which activates the vitamin D receptor (VDR), so as I understand it, even if your vitamin D levels are low, you will still have VDR activation from Benicar.

The overall idea of the Marshall Protocol is not to reduce VDR activation, but to increase it. Taking Benicar and avoiding vitamin D is supposed to serve that purpose of increasing VDR activation. Activating the VDR releases the anti-microbial peptides beta-defensins and cathelicidin.

I am not sure if I understand the mechanics, but Dr Marshall said something about the inactive form of vitamin D (called 25-D) being an antagonist to VDR, whereas the active form (called 1,25-D) is a VDR agonist, and that when too much 25-D binds to the VDR, it inactivates this receptor, and stops 1,25-D from binding to and switching on the VDR.

So when people say that the Marshall Protocol is wrong because vitamin D is essential, I don't think they've understood that in theory at least the MP aims to increase VDR activation.

Whether that theory is right is another question, but I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to chronic diseases, the vitamin D receptor, and intracellular infections.

Dr Trevor Marshall developed his protocol originally to treat his sarcoidosis, which is associated with an intracellular L-form infection of the bacterium Propionibacterium acnes. Thus antibiotics make sense in this context.

Marshall also noticed that his sarcoidosis was made worse after strong sunlight exposure (this was in Australia), and that's where the sunlight and vitamin D avoidance started. In sarcoidosis, vitamin D metabolism is abnormal, because this disease creates high levels of the enzyme which converts vitamin D into its active form. I don't understand the whole story, but possibly his sun avoidance may make sense in the context of sarcoidosis.

However I don't agree with Trevor Marshall's idea that whole swathes of diseases, including ME/CFS, are caused by intracellular bacterial infection, nor the idea that vitamin D levels are a central factor in these many diseases.


Don't get me wrong, my view is that many chronic diseases will likely turn out to be caused by chronic infection (in conjunction with other causal factors), but there are more infections to consider than just L-form bacteria.

In particular, in terms of tissue evidence, ME/CFS is mainly linked to intracellular enterovirus infection; but there's no evidence of an intracellular bacterial infection in ME/CFS, except in the small subset of cases linked to Chlamydia pneumoniae.

However Trevor Marshall was adamant (I am not sure if he still is), that chronic viral infections were not the cause of ME/CFS, and it was all down to L-form bacteria. I think viruses not intracellular bacteria are likely the key to ME/CFS.

So if we take away the antibiotics, and take away the sunlight and vitamin D avoidance, it's possible Benicar's activation of the VDR alone may still have some benefit against viral infection.


Some viruses have been shown to block or down-regulate the VDR, for immune evasion purposes. EBV blocks the VDR to prevent apoptosis, and CMV down-regulates the VDR.

The defensins that are released by VDR activation are shown to have antiviral effects: they are antiviral for HSV and CMV, and antiviral for CVB.

Thus a blocked VDR may turn out to play a role in maintaining chronic viral infection or long-term viral latency, and activating the VDR may thus have antiviral benefits.
Thanks Hip!

Most of what you say about the treatment and the science behind it here is accurate, and I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this calmly! But yes to clarify: we absolutely think that persistent viruses can play a role in ME/CFS, and in fact, viruses are some of the main pathogens that deregulate VDR receptor activity:)
 
I have to say, I did not expect to post on this board in good faith...and then be practically criminalized with claims that are untrue and unfair.

There is no "conspiracy" here as implied. If you look at my latest paper on ME/CFS my affiliation is clearly listed as Autoimmunity Research Foundation, and my co-author as Trevor Marshall. Not only do I not "hide" this information...I'm very, very proud of it.

You can also google statements taken out of context from websites created 10 years ago. But I'll say the following. The Marshall Protocol is a reasonable treatment still used by many patients with success. I still work with four medical groups that use the treatment today. It is however true that some medium/severe ME/CFS cases experience too much of a herxheimer reaction for such patients to reasonably remain on the therapy.

I personally used the Marshall Protocol to help my ME/CFS. I was able to move from bedridden to a place where I can now work.

If you want to learn more about how the Protocol and ME/CFS I suggest you read the peer-reviewed journal article we published on that exact topic (it's attached to this post): "Immunostimulation in the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis." The paper explains the actual molecular biology behind the treatment, and then provides case histories of ME/CFS patients who used the treatment. We made sure to include case histories from patients who benefitted from the treatment as well as case histories from those that did not.

So I encourage you to get your information from that article. Because, if you wanted, you could take any treatment (let's say LDN), come to this site, google comments, and only post statements from patients that had trouble tolerating LDN. You could make LDN look like a horror story. You could do the same thing for antivirals like Valtrex or Valcyte etc etc. But the truth is that with nearly ALL potential treatments, some patients benefit and others don't (we are living in an era of personalized medicine).

So I'm very sorry to hear of patients that did not do well on the Marshall Protocol...but that in no way means it's OK to treat me with such cruelty or to somehow dismiss all the hard work and related research I've done over the course of many years.

And one more thing: dannybex: since you seem to be so confident in all of your negative claims, can you explain to me exactly how the journal we published that article on Marshall Protocol + ME/CFS is a "questionable journal." It's actually a very good, reliable journal:

https://link.springer.com/journal/12026

So again, please explain exactly why, according to you, the Springer journal Immunologic Research is questionable. Thanks.

Also Dannybex: do you really think an article written by Dr. Mercola is the best way to educate people about my work? Dr. Mercola had a personal problem with our research from day #1 because he is funded by vitamin D supplement companies and the indoor tanning industry. And since we argue against high-dose vitamin D supplementation, he simply tried to trash our work for financial reasons. Interestingly, he has since been sued big-time for such conflicts of interest:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-sunbed-doc-settles-0415-biz-20160414-story.html
 
@Milo the court papers were online in Ventura CA, but they've been removed. This dates back to 2004, so I don't remember the exact details. Penny was the administrator for CFSExperimental Yahoo group.

There is some information here
Wasn't Penny a moderator for Dr Marshall's forum? Or was she also involved with CFSExperimental? When I was a member of the later group I believe it was Ken Lassesen who was the administrator.
 
Wasn't Penny a moderator for Dr Marshall's forum? Or was she also involved with CFSExperimental? When I was a member of the later group I believe it was Ken Lassesen who was the administrator.

You are correct about Ken Lassen. I'm not sure if Penny was a moderator for Marshall's forum.
 
But the truth is that with nearly ALL potential treatments, some patients benefit and others don't (we are living in an era of personalized medicine).

... in no way means it's OK to treat me with such cruelty or to somehow dismiss all the hard work and related research I've done over the course of many years.

can you explain to me exactly how the journal we published that article on Marshall Protocol + ME/CFS is a "questionable journal." It's actually a very good, reliable journal:

I am sorry that you feel aggrieved, Amy. However, the words above indicate clearly that you do not understand the basic requirements of valid biomedical science. None of the treatments you mention are of any value to anyone as far as we know from the evidence.

This forum was set up to take a critical scientific view. That can seem harsh at times but it is the only way to get at the truth. It isn't a narrow view. Anything can be considered, but the evidence needs to be valid.

I am an immunologist and I have never heard of 'Immunologic Research'. Most recently set up journals are rubbish I am afraid and even the old once-respected ones include nonsense these days. There is no such thing as a reliable journal now.
 
I am an immunologist and I have never heard of 'Immunologic Research'. Most recently set up journals are rubbish I am afraid and even the old once-respected ones include nonsense these days. There is no such thing as a reliable journal now.

Immunologic Research from quick Googling has been around for 35 years, though it has apparently changed its name a few times. The impact factor is 2.5, which ranks it among the better 30% of journals.

I fully agree with everything regarding a critical scientific and evidence-based view. However, I don't fully agree that no treatments are of any value for ME/CFS patients. I would bet that almost every ME/CFS patient on this forum takes a drug or supplement that he or she finds of some benefit. Regarding LDN, even in this forum, which is set to take a critical view as you put it, several members in this thread report benefit. There is a value to these type of off-label treatments, at the very least for treating disease related symptoms.
 
Immunologic Research from quick Googling has been around for 35 years, though it has apparently changed its name a few times. The impact factor is 2.5, which ranks it among the better 30% of journals.

Maybe it has changed its name but I must have read several thousand immunology papers over the years and never come across it.

every ME/CFS patient on this forum takes a drug or supplement that he or she finds of some benefit

I doubt it is as many as you think. A lot of people on the forum are well aware that nothing has any useful effect on ME as far as we know. Lots of us are attached to things because we think they might help but the reality is they probably don't.
 
I would bet that almost every ME/CFS patient on this forum takes a drug or supplement that he or she finds of some benefit. Regarding LDN, even in this forum, which is set to take a critical view as you put it, several members in this thread report benefit. There is a value to these type of off-label treatments, at the very least for treating disease related symptoms.

I don’t, I’ve tried lots and nothing has worked. I like to see if there’s any evidence for something working before trying it these days.
 
I'm just skeptical that there will be "the drug" that will cure or improve a significant part of the patients with ME/CFS, at least not during my lifetime. Individualized medicine, by looking at factors like the microbiome and deciding the best course of action, may be the only way to obtain improvement for many people.

I looked at the history of drug development for depression, which appears to be a heterogeneous condition with many different causes, in that sense similar to ME/CFS (and by this I'm not at all implying that ME/CFS is a psychiatric illness, just that it appears to share the character of heterogeneity). When the first tricyclic antidepressants were developed and tested on a selected small group of hospitalized patients with severe depression, the response rates were high, as much as 60-70%. But once the scope of patients treated with antidepressants grew wider, the effect over placebo kept reducing, to where it's only slightly above placebo now. The current situation is that one antidepressant might help one patient whereas another patient might be helped by another and a third patient responds to none. What's worse, nobody seems to know why these differences occur, so there is no way to predict what antidepressant person X would respond to, if any. And this is after 50+ years of drug development and millions of dollars invested.

This similar problem in ME/CFS I think showed up in the Rituximab trial. There were people that reported significant, even huge benefit, in the smaller phase 2 group. I remember in particular this table which I captured two years ago. After looking at aforementioned table, I was very confident this would be the long awaited effective treatment for ME/CFS, as were most people I discussed with. But when the patient group was widened for the phase 3 trial, the effect was suddenly no longer significant.
 
I was very confident this would be the long awaited effective treatment for ME/CFS, as were most people I discussed with.

I was not. I said it is not for me.

The med I still use has many effects on T cells and no known direct effect on B cells.
 
I'm just skeptical that there will be "the drug" that will cure or improve a significant part of the patients with ME/CFS, at least not during my lifetime. Individualized medicine, by looking at factors like the microbiome and deciding the best course of action, may be the only way to obtain improvement for many people.

I’m just skeptical that any of these treatments have been discovered yet and I’m done experimenting on myself until there’s some evidence to back up anecdotal reports.

Edited for duplicated word
 
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Nope! Not a one. I have not found a single drug or supplement that has helped in any way regarding my ME/CFS.

How many drugs and supplements out of the following fairly standard list of medications known to help ME/CFS have you tried? Many of these are employed by leading ME/CFS doctors.

B12 methylcobalamin injections
Low-dose naltrexone
Oxymatrine (for enterovirus ME/CFS)
Valcyte (for herpesvirus ME/CFS)
Nimodipine
GcMAF injections
Tenofovir

Piracetam (for brain fog)
Methylphenidate (for brain fog and fatigue)
Dichloroacetate (for brain fog, fatigue and pain)
Modafinil (for brain fog)
Moclobemide (for brain fog)

D-ribose (to speed up PEM recovery)
 
Two treatments have helped me, omega 3 and magnesium/taurine injections.
 
How many drugs and supplements out of the following fairly standard list of medications known to help ME/CFS have you tried? Many of these are employed by leading ME/CFS doctors.

None of those are known to help ME/CFS as far as I know.
'Leading ME/CFS doctors' does not necessarily equate to doctors who know what they are doing. I can think of some leading politicians...
 
Individualized medicine, by looking at factors like the microbiome and deciding the best course of action, may be the only way to obtain improvement for many people.

The problem is that individualised medicine can only kick in after you have a result on a whole population - a standard controlled trial. Once you know there are some people who truly benefit you can start finding out how to 'individualise' them. But you can never get reliable evidence of effectiveness from individuals without these population trials. In theory there are some situations where you can but they are very much the exception.

Individualised medicine is always a refinement after the standard boring task of proper controlled trials. In any other guise it is a mirage.
 
None of those are known to help ME/CFS as far as I know.

I agree that if you are talking about phase III clinical trials, sure, we don't have that kind of evidence for these treatments.

And the benefits these treatments provide are often not dramatic, so they don't attract a great deal of interest in terms of large clinical studies. But some on the list have been shown effective in small-scale studies.

Generally, from anecdotal accounts I've read on the forums, you'd be very lucky if any of these treatments will move you up even just 1 level on the ME/CFS scale of very severe, severe, moderate, mild, remission. Such a 1-level improvement is quite rare.

But if such an improvement does happen to you, even a 1-level improvement is still welcome, as there is quite a difference between say severe ME/CFS and moderate ME/CFS.



Having ME/CFS is a bit like being locked up in a prisoner of war camp. Every officer so incarcerated dreams of freedom, and in the movies at least, spends much of his time hatching escape plans with his fellow POWs.

Even though the chances of escape are small, it's the very planning of an escape that raises morale among the imprisoned officers. This analogy perhaps explains the psychology of why many ME/CFS patients like to discuss potential treatments that they hope might lead to health improvements.

Yes the chances of hitting upon an ME/CFS treatment that provides substantial improvements are small, but they are not zero. And even if none of the treatments you try over the years help, some people find the morale-raising effect of pursing treatments is in itself a treatment of sorts.

I know in my case, every time I start thinking about trying out a new treatment, it puts me in a more optimistic state — probably unfounded optimism, probably foolish optimism — but optimism nevertheless. And in addition, there is still that small chance I might get lucky. In fact I did get lucky with one treatment I tried, which moved me up perhaps ½ a level on the scale.
 
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Yes, and I agree with above that you are unlikely to get significant improvement in ME/CFS from any currently available treatment. My point was more that there are treatments that help with symptoms and those should be offered to ME/CFS patients. I have found plenty of supplements and medications that have helped with sleep, brain fog, neuropathic pain, wired but tired feeling, etc. Unfortunately they do not magically turn the core disease around. I also have had significant reduction in a few bothersome symptoms from simple dietary changes, which are very low-risk to try out.

And there is definitely the morale-raising effect of trying something new, I agree. People also fill lottery tickets although they know they have almost zero chance of winning, the chance is even less than recovering from ME/CFS.
 
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