"ME/CFS in the Long COVID World", Kenneth Friedman

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS news' started by forestglip, Feb 13, 2025.

  1. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This PDF came up in Google Scholar. Not really sure what the context is.

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    ME/CFS in the Long COVID World

    Kenneth J. Friedman, Ph.D

    First paragraph (with line break added):

    As we begin the 2nd quarter of the 21st century, there is reason to be optimistic about progress being made in ME/CFS research and patient care. First quarter developments offer that promise: The Institute of Medicine offered physicians easy-to-use diagnostic criteria for ME/CFS, the similarities between symptoms of ME/CFS and Long COVID have been rigorously demonstrated and offer indirect proof that ME/CFS is neither an imagined or psychosomatic disease, the National Academy of Medicine offered Long COVID diagnostic criteria which are inclusive of many ME/CFS patients, and a report emerged at a recent rheumatology meeting which stated that some arthritis patients exhibit post-exertional malaise (PEM) – the cardinal symptom of ME/CFS. Used properly, these developments could move ME/CFS into the mainstream of medicine which would facilitate diagnosis and treatment of many more ME/CFS patients.

    Where ME/CFS was once wrongfully characterized as “yuppie flu” or a women’s disease, or a disease which was imagined because its viral trigger could not be found, or considered by some to be a disease so devoid of physical symptoms that it could only be explained as an imagined or psychosomatic illness, those characterizations are difficult to sustain as we enter the second quarter of the 21st century.

    PDF
     
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  2. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    [5] Applying Lessons from Rheumatology to Better Understand Long COVID, 2023, Goldenberg

    It's paywalled, and nothing in the abstract about PEM in arthritis.
     
  3. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Have a feeling that Friedman was one of the people who commented on my Qeios article.
    It is not very clear what this piece is for - I guess as a political lobby exercise.
     
  5. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I thought the year was weird too, but if I go to the paper link and click Export Citation, it gives:
    And the citation from this essay is:
    But if it doesn't mention what he claims, maybe it's still the wrong reference.
     
  6. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    With that confusion over date maybe it was intended as the source. It may that Friedman just saw that ME/CFS was mentioned in an American College of Rheumatology journal so thought it must be saying something about arthritis and so made the point that this was big news.

    The squib is a bit damp because 'Arthritis Care and Research' is the second string journal for ACR. Arthritis and Rheumatology is the hard science journal. Arthritis Care and Research is the soft science journal - stuff that wouldn't make the main journal basically.
     
  7. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He wants to rebrand ME/CFS as a Post Active Phase of Infection Syndrome (PAPIS).

    That would be a bit like rebranding lung cancer as a Post Smoking Syndrome just because smoking can increase the risk of lung cancer.
     
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  8. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I emailed Dr. Friedman to ask about it. He says it is in fact mentioned in reference 5. But he also referred me to this, which also says the same:

    Medscape: Post-Exertional Malaise in Fatiguing Diseases: What to Know to Avoid Harmful Exercise
    Miriam E. Tucker
    Dr. Friedman also said:
     
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  9. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you for asking, and good on him for responding.

    I hope he meant ‘learn about’ or ‘study’ PEM in the last paragraph, as we have no known treatments.

    Unrelated, how reliable is the DPSQ? Are there lots of false positives for fatigue?
     
  10. Nightsong

    Nightsong Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I looked at this a little while ago. The Goldenberg paper doesn't say that arthritis patients have PEM (although it does claim that 1/3rd of patients with RA & OA have FM and that PEM occurs in 80-90% of FM cases!). Goldenberg considers ME/CFS, FM & LC to be central sensitivity syndromes; here's another paper of his that explains his views:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0049017224000957

    I think the paper that they may have meant to reference was "Prevalence of Post-exertional Malaise (PEM) in Adults with Rheumatic Diseases and Relationship with COVID19 Infection" (Arthritis Rheumatol. 2024; 76 suppl 9), which claims PEM in 4.4% of OA cases based on DSQ-PEM:

    https://acrabstracts.org/abstract/p...ases-and-relationship-with-covid19-infection/
     
  11. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That paper says this:
    Their reference is Appelman, Wüst & Co, which clearly states that PEM is the worsening of symptoms, not fatigue.

    It seems like the foundation for Friedman’s arguments is a bit shaky.
     
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  12. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I don't see why this is relevant. He referred to a study which found PEM in OA and RA. Even if they say in the study text that PEM is specifically only fatigue related symptoms, the findings are based on the DSQ, which is a commonly used measure of PEM (though DSQ has its shortcomings, but that's a different issue).
     
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  13. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    From the Medscape article, a quote from one of the investigators in the arthritis study:
     
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  14. Utsikt

    Utsikt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Fair point! I’m not fully up to speed on the DSQ, so I can’t comment on that part.
    what’s true PEM?
     
  15. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I guess one of the definitions used by NICE or IOM:

    NICE
    IOM report, p. 86
     
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  16. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    See:
     
  17. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Version 2. No idea how much has been updated.
    https://albanyhealthmanagement.com/.../2025/02/MECFS-in-the-Long-COVID-World-v2.pdf
     
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  18. forestglip

    forestglip Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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