Muscle strength is reduced for hours after light exercise

[Hoopoe]

I did a little test yesterday. It's not a well controlled test but can still provide useful information.

The test consisted in as many squats as I could manage to do. The leg muscles started hurting a little through the test. Then I sat down for a moment. When I stood up, my legs couldn't bear weight and I fell in a sort of half controlled way. I tried again, more carefully and could walk but with clearly visible abnormalities (swaying left and right, legs that are kept straight to spare the quadriceps).

The next morning my legs had improved but were still not normal. And they still hurt. I could walk a short distance to buy bread but with some discomfort. Better to let the muscles rest now.

I wonder if this is typical of more advanced ME? I'm being investigated by a neurologist for muscle diseases.

 

[EndME]

I would suppose that this might be very normal in any disease or circumstance that causes severe degeneration of muscles?

 

[Wyva]

Not from a pwME perspective: I had this happen to me occasionally during and after some of my workouts, back when I was physically very trained pre-ME. I did super intense workouts, not something beginners could complete or get even halfway through, mostly HIIT and strength training. Yet, when the exercises were a bit too heavy (meaning heavier than what I was normally used to) on some muscles, then muscle weakness and fatigue similar to this happened. Not frequently but every once in a while it did. Especially when the goal was to train to muscle failure. (And "doing as many squats as you could manage" also sounds a bit like training to failure, even if here it means simply the number of repetitions.)

So when this happened, sometimes I couldn't lift my arms after the workout for a while or my legs were super wobbly. "Not being able to lift my arms to wash my hair" was a thing. Of course this got better a bit later, however, I could still feel the muscle weakness even in the evening to a lesser extent (I did my workouts very early in the morning, so this means significantly later). I might not have noticed it otherwise but when I went to an event in the evening wearing high heels, I definitely felt wobblier than usually after such a workout in the morning. (Because you need more muscle power to walk in very high heels than in flats.)

So what I'm saying is that the process itself may not be pathological if the muscles are overtrained but it may be a more exaggerated effect in your case.

 

[Trish]

I think I would have the same effect. I don't intent to test myself to exhaustion as I don't want the PEM that follows.

Isn't this what the 2 day CPET studies show?

 

[Hubris]

Many years ago, when I could still leave the house, I tried going for a swim at the beach. I like going underwater and somewhat far from the shore. After 5 minutes of swimming I suddenly realized I became extremely weak and almost could not move my limbs. I was able to get to the shore because my technique is good and I only needed minimal movements to resurface every few seconds and take breaths. When I got to the shore, I could not move or walk for at least 20 minutes.

The thing is, the first 5 minutes my muscle strength was normal and I could swim quickly. I find it ridiculous that neurologists don't test your strength for a prolonged period of time before claiming you don't have any muscle weakness.

 

[Hoopoe]

Especially when the goal was to train to muscle failure. (And "doing as many squats as you could manage" also sounds a bit like training to failure, even if here it means simply the number of repetitions.)

I trained before the illness and don't remember any similar reactions. But I didn't train with the intent to go as long as possible.

I think it was at least 20 squats. Maybe 30. Probably less than 40.

 

[Wyva]

I trained before the illness and don't remember any similar reactions. But I didn't train with the intent to go as long as possible.

I think it was at least 20 squats. Maybe 30. Probably less than 40.

Well, most of my workouts were quite insane and the goal was to push yourself to the edge of your capacity and even over, either with the weights or with the intensity, so I think that's why I ended up with this bit more prolonged muscle weakness/muscle fatigue every once in a while. (Luckily I've never had full-on overtraining syndrome or similar, apart from this happening occasionally.)

And that's why this reminded me of the same thing, reaching and going over your limits. I'm not sure if this is indeed the same, just happening at an abnormal intensity for pwME or a different phenomenon but to me it sounded similar.

 

[duncan]

When I stood up, my legs couldn't bear weight and I fell in a sort of half controlled way. I tried again, more carefully and could walk but with clearly visible abnormalities (swaying left and right, legs that are kept straight to spare the quadriceps).

Muscle weakness is a hallmark of channelopathies as well. There are more and more channelopathies being identified - or at least labeled as such - without genetic markers, i.e., that have no known genetic marker yet. For instance, my wife has a rare channelopathy that is called ATS1. It is confirmed by a genetic marker. But now there is ATS2, which has no genetic marker. These can impact skeletal muscles in significant ways.

You may want to keep that in mind when your neuro is looking for muscle disorders, but it is likely not relevant. Good luck.

 

[lunarainbows]

Yes this happened earlier on in my illness (first few months), when I used to push myself to walk outside the home. After a short time walking, I’ve had my legs completely collapse from underneath me due to weakness and had to be carried. It happened again when I was pushed to exercise/walk again a year after that.

If I tried to push myself like that now, I think it would definitely happen again.

 

[Mij]

I've been doing 4-5 lb arm muscle reps (25 up to 75) lifts through out the day every day the last 2 weeks. I'm feeling ok with this. I'm also trying 20-40 squats through out the day, no negative after effects so far. I'm also training myself by doing pike leg lifts using my core muscles- ughh, can't do this too often. I'm trying to determine whether I can build a little muscle w/o causing harm.

Some days/weeks I'm ok while other days I'm not, it varies. I don't experience PEM like I would from doing aerobic type exercises.

 

[Hoopoe]

Yes strength training that doesn't last long enough to go deep into aerobic metabolism seems to be much more compatible with PEM than aerobic training.

 

[Trish]

What about muscle fatiguability? I do stuff using my arms and/or legs that is neither strength training nor aerobic activity, like typing, washing dishes, walking short distances in my home etc. It always leaves my arms/legs in a lot of pain and feeling weaker. I can't attempt to build strength without triggering weakness and pain. And it adds to the cumulative effect of activity for the day that can easily tip over into PEM.

 

[duncan]

What about muscle fatiguability? I do stuff using my arms and/or legs that is neither strength training nor aerobic activity, like typing, washing dishes, walking short distances in my home etc. It always leaves my arms/legs in a lot of pain and feeling weaker. I can't attempt to build strength without triggering weakness and pain. And it adds to the cumulative effect of activity for the day that can easily tip over into PEM.

So this applies to both me and my wife, but no pain for me. And in theory no PEM for my wife, but she gets "episodes" that can occur a day or two or whatever after doing too much. Are episodes PEM? Is it all her symptoms? Hard to tell anymore.

I sometimes think this may contribute to the Australians' channelopathy theories about ME/CFS.

 

[Kitty]

I too get muscle weakness after activity that's challenging enough.

The main characteristics are that it's relatively short lived, and there's an element of negotiability: I'm unsteady but have the sense that I'd get out on adrenaline if the building were on fire. Most of the pain only sets in hours later, and any of my muscles can be affected. The severity also goes through long cycles, where sometimes it's worse and other times less so.

The weakness I get from what might be a channelopathy is very different.

It's triggered by things like simple carbs and steroid meds. The worst trigger of all is stopping exercise and resting without keeping my arms and legs moving. The weakness persists for a long time, and there's almost no negotiation: in a bad one I couldn't get out in a fire. Most of the pain happens immediately, but only the muscles in my arms, legs, hips and shoulders are affected. Those in my core, neck, and face never go weak.

The effects have reduced as I've got older. It was worst in my late teens and 20s, and then the severity of episodes reduced again from my early 40s. But by then my leg muscles were so knackered that they stopped recovering properly, and I've been unable to walk much ever since.