Resources for help getting food during quarantine and safe handling of food

[Wits_End]

I had occasion to look at Sainsburys online offerings last night.

Things have not improved, in fact the range of items I could buy have shrunk, drastically e.g. what was 3 pages of tinned meats is now 7 items.
[...]
I used to buy specific things from them, they are no longer prepared to sell me these things.

Looks like my custom is up for grabs.

I think all supermarkets have to some extent decided to concentrate on a smaller core of items for the time being, in the hope of being able to keep up with demand better. But I started abandoning Sainsbury's for Waitrose a couple of years ago, when they stopped selling a lot of what I thought of as basic items/sizes, which I can now only get in Waitrose.

 

[Sasha]

I'm sorry but I haven't been able to read the thread and am wondering if there's an update on how long the coronavirus lasts on surfaces. I've heard that the original tests produced overestimates because they used dense sprays that didn't represent the density of virus in exhaled particles, leading to stacking of virus on surfaces that made them last longer.

Is this true and is there a link to the research?

 

[Subtropical Island]

I'm sorry but I haven't been able to read the thread and am wondering if there's an update on how long the coronavirus lasts on surfaces. I've heard that the original tests produced overestimates because they used dense sprays that didn't represent the density of virus in exhaled particles, leading to stacking of virus on surfaces that made them last longer.

Is this true and is there a link to the research?

It looks as though there isn’t new research on surface transmission, only critique of the original March (New England Journal of medicine) study: that the test sprayed more particles of virus on each surface than a sneeze might and that therefore the viral equivalent of half-life might be more like a few hours if what you’re testing for is transmission of disease.

(Edit to remove excess)

This looks like the most recent ‘research’ (case study really) I could find on transmission of SARS-Covid-19 from surfaces: A woman in China remained asymptomatic but appears to be patient 0 for a cluster in her building (with a common elevator) back in March-June.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-1798_article
It was cited by an NZ article discussing the recent case of a maintenance worker contracting disease when the only contact we could trace was an elevator button (used minutes apart). I’m guessing this latter is still being investigated.

 

[Subtropical Island]

This preprint suggests that heat treatment (70°C) can inactivate the virus but that it’s much faster if the droplets are enclosed (in a vial, not an oven) ??
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.10.242206v1

The point made is that all factors need to be specified before we can say how long virus lasts on surfaces (open or enclosed, temperature, humidity, medium, ...)

 

[Sean]

The point made is that all factors need to be specified before we can say how long virus lasts on surfaces (open or enclosed, temperature, humidity, medium, ...)

This. It is a multi-axis assessment.

Plus whether the testing is for harmless viral particles from a degraded and 'dead' virus, or potentially harmful viable whole virus.

 

[Simbindi]

In England teachers are not allowed to mark students books (or at least not unless the books have been 'quarantined' for 72 hours minimum, which isn't practical in most cases). So it seems they are erring on the cautious side about this, at least at the present time.

 

[mango]

BBC News: Covid virus ‘survives for 28 days’ in lab conditions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-54500673



ETA direct link to the study:

The effect of temperature on persistence of SARS-CoV-2 on common surfaces
https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-020-01418-7

Abstract
Background

The rate at which COVID-19 has spread throughout the globe has been alarming. While the role of fomite transmission is not yet fully understood, precise data on the environmental stability of SARS-CoV-2 is required to determine the risks of fomite transmission from contaminated surfaces.

Methods
This study measured the survival rates of infectious SARS-CoV-2, suspended in a standard ASTM E2197 matrix, on several common surface types. All experiments were carried out in the dark, to negate any effects of UV light. Inoculated surfaces were incubated at 20 °C, 30 °C and 40 °C and sampled at various time points.

Results
Survival rates of SARS-CoV-2 were determined at different temperatures and D-values, Z-values and half-life were calculated. We obtained half lives of between 1.7 and 2.7 days at 20 °C, reducing to a few hours when temperature was elevated to 40 °C. With initial viral loads broadly equivalent to the highest titres excreted by infectious patients, viable virus was isolated for up to 28 days at 20 °C from common surfaces such as glass, stainless steel and both paper and polymer banknotes. Conversely, infectious virus survived less than 24 h at 40 °C on some surfaces.

Conclusion
These findings demonstrate SARS-CoV-2 can remain infectious for significantly longer time periods than generally considered possible. These results could be used to inform improved risk mitigation procedures to prevent the fomite spread of COVID-19.

 

[JemPD]

Yes i saw that @mango and decided to mentally blot it out/ignore it.

After all it was in lab conditions and the samples were kept entirely in the dark in stable temperature & humidity - so ideal environmental conditions for the virus... so it doesn't tell us that much about real life conditions, or whether the virus was able to actually infect after that long (as i understand it).
So i am still only quarantining shiny/smooth surface things for 9 days (the longest of the times viable was found in previous studies), cardboard was 2 days. I am the most vigilant person i know - outside of S4 - & while this does concern me, especially that it was kept at room temperature i think. It's just not possible to quarantine things for 28days or to wipe everything.

I wipe for fridge/freezer, i quarantine the rest & i dont eat salad or anything not packed in a really strict environment. Some people think thats too stringent, others that it isnt enough. I think we all just have to find out what we are comfortable with, and most crucially.. capable of. So i am trying to ignore this latest study, else i wont be able to function.

 

[Wonko]

I do not do any of that.

I open as much mail, straight from the letter box, as I always have done, possibly more (I'm not great at opening mail as sometimes there are words inside, and words mean reading, so often if I am not up to it.....letters get put in a pile for later processing, and then forgotten about).

I do tend to open parcels with a few hours of arrival, not 48 hours or whatever.

With shopping most of my shopping is either fresh stuff, which needs to be processed immediately, tinned or frozen stuff, or 'cleaning' products (everything from disinfectant, through soap, to toilet rolls). These all tend to be processed as soon as I have the capability to do so, with the priorities being frozen and fridgeable stuff first.

The only real difference to the pre-covid era is now, after doing such things, I wash my hands.

I do not then wash the soap. I do not use bleach on food stuffs or their packaging. I mainly use bleach in the toilet. This is what bleach is used for here - it is not IMO suitable as a salad dressing.

But then I have always taken the attitude that if it gets me it gets me. I'll take what I consider to be reasonable measures, that don't greatly inconvenience me, and I'll adopt society wide measures, whether legal or guidelines, as I don't to take the vanishingly small risk, since I've been shielding since March with minimal contact with people, of infecting anyone, and I tend to follow rules anyway.

But as to generating loads of work, putting my QoL in the toilet, with the bleach, simply to cut my risk of dying a bit - not gonna do that any more than I am going to live in a hazmat suit.

To me such things are disproportionate.

 

[JemPD]

I do not then wash the soap. I do not use bleach on food stuffs or their packaging. I mainly use bleach in the toilet. This is what bleach is used for here - it is not IMO suitable as a salad dressing.

lol. I dont use bleach, i just either wipe with a soapy cloth or with a cloth soaked in Dew (- hypochlorous acid - food safe, discussed on another thread). I only do that with the stuff for the fridge/freezer, and only the external packaging. I leave the rest of my shopping in it's bags quarantining for a few days before i touch it again. I live in a large space so i can do that easily.

Washing hands after unpacking is all very well, and what most people are doing i think, but if it had viable virus on it from others' handling of it at 2pm, it's likely still there at 6pm, especially if in the freezer, and my confusion & cognitive impairment is pretty bad a lot of the time, there is no way i would remember, or indeed be capable of, standing up to wash my hands after each handling of whatever i get out of the freezer. (same with parcels i just chuck them in a box near the door 7 leave them a couple of days unless i need it right then. I do read letters as soon as i capable but thats often not when they arrive so i throw them in the Q box until i capable too, then wash hands after.)

I couldnt care less if it kills me, i'm not suicidal but if i'm honest I'd be pretty grateful if i died tonight. If i thought it likely to kill me i'd be taking no inconvenient precautions at all.
My fear is getting even worse and living bedbound in agony for the nxt 20yrs, or being sectioned just for being very severe or whatever. Very severe ME is a fate much worse than death imo, & that's what scares me. Sacrificing a bit of other activity so i can sit and wipe down 5 or 6 items with a cloth before they go in the fridge/freezer so i can have a better chance of avoiding that fate seems a very small price to pay in my world. It takes about 5mins once a wk, it's not a huge amount of work. I cant unpack/put away all my shopping in one go anyway - i've always had to leave non perishables to the carer to put away so i only juggled the days she does that, and added a few mins wiping which i felt worth it.

Of course we dont know yet for sure what the effect of covid is on PwME but i havent yet read an account of someone with ME who has had it and recovered to their pre ME level yet.

Also tbh I trust @Jonathan Edwards, and another Dr i know, who are also wipers, so i feel comfortable following their lead on that. Of course it may well be overkill, but it helps keep my anxiety down which would be much more detrimental to my health if i felt i couldnt relax in my home, it's bad enough having to have carers doing all sorts that i cant see.

 

[JemPD]

Moved from the biology thread.

Coronavirus: How safe are takeaways and supermarket deliveries? - BBC News

So they are saying to leave items for '72hrs' to decontaminate.... Does anyone know if there is any actual evidence showing it dies off within 3 days.... (other than on cardboard)? The 3 day figure seems to be repeated quite a lot but seems to be just the quoted Dr's best guess?

The studies/data we were looking at on here last year (i'm sorry i cant find the links now & cant spare the energy to look as i have a big wk ahead of me, but i will come back with links in a few days if required) said 7- 9days for steel/plastic/glass (depending on the study) - i did see one study showing 28days but people were sceptical that it could survive that long outside lab conditions, so i've been quarantining what i cannot wipe for a wk-10days accordingly, would love to know if there is actual data to support the shorter time span.
I dont wipe packaging with bleach these days but with Dew (hypocholrus acid) as it smells better & is food safe, & would prefer not to get into a discussion about the merits of wiping packaging etc, as we been through it all & I know plenty of people think it unnecessary/daft. I just keen to know what the latest science is about how long it lives (in viable form) on surfaces.

Am especially keen to know if your perspective on this has changed at all @Jonathan Edwards , & if you still using meths etc?

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Am especially keen to know if your perspective on this has changed at all @Jonathan Edwards , & if you still using meths etc?

Yes, I wiped down the groceries with meths just this minute. I don't think there is any cut off time for safety because virus will die off exponentially. I think 72 hours is a pretty reasonable time to go by but we are now again tending to wipe everything down unless it is going to be boiled or roasted.

I guess one aspect of this is that at least in the UK the risk from things bought is going to be highest now for about two weeks and then should fall off rapidly. It is probably worth being obsessive just for a short period at this point.

 

[MeSci]

I'm afraid I don't have the energy to wipe things down, and only have a sink downstairs which contains washing-up and a cold tap in another room down a step. I tend to cook everything that hasn't been kept for a while, and try to be careful with post for at least a day, using rubber gloves to pick it up.

 

[Binkie4]

One of my remaining pleasures is to read the delivered newspaper, which obviously needs to be done promptly. During the first lockdown we removed and put to one side the outside page which was most unsatisfactory. Didn't know what I was reading about until well into the article.

Over the summer I started to read the outside page again and have continued but wondered if this is safe (am in London) while everything feels so unsafe. Found the following article which is reassuring. Hope it is to be trusted. Perhaps I ought to play safe for a while but for some reason, it is hard to give up this small pleasure.


https://www.scotsman.com/health/doe...rmarket-items-surfaces-and-newspapers-2523420

 

[perchance dreamer]

I had to look up what you guys mean when you say meths. I was wondering why you were talking about methamphetamine in this context.

I am scrupulous about washing my hands when I need to, but I don't wipe down groceries although I wash my hands after putting them away. I also don't worry about getting the virus from touching the newspaper. I'm a lot more concerned about the airborne transmission of this virus.

 

[Wonko]

For newspapers use the letters to santa system. Using gloves address it to

Santa
Santas village
South Pole.

Place in a roaring fire

The santa mail system will of course return it, as it's wrongly addressed, but due to having been incinerated and reassembled so Santa can read it, it will now be virus free.

 

[Binkie4]

For newspapers use the letters to santa system. Using gloves address it to

Santa
Santas village
South Pole.

Place in a roaring fire

The santa mail system will of course return it, as it's wrongly addressed, but due to having been incinerated and reassembled so Santa can read it, it will now be virus free.

Ho, ho, ho.

 

[mango]

"If you catch Covid in Japan, the Japanese government will give you a FREE care package for your quarantine! Care packages are only available to those who test positive for covid." (10 minutes)

 

[Wonko]

"If you catch Covid in Japan, the Japanese government will give you a FREE care package for your quarantine! Care packages are only available to those who test positive for covid." (10 minutes)

That is a lot of food for 1 week, for 1 person, and certainly much higher quality than the UK government gave us, on the occasions they actually bothered to deliver it.