Towards an institute for patient-led research - Trish Greenhalgh, BMJ blog November 12, 2019

Sly Saint

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Patient involvement in research—a brief history

There is a well-described mismatch between the research that is done on a particular condition and the research that patients themselves would like to see done. [4,6] Formal research priority-setting partnerships aim to reduce this mismatch by involving patients in the selection of topics for research. [7, 8] The National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) has strongly supported patient and public involvement (PPI) in research, produced national benchmarks for PPI, funded INVOLVE (www.invo.org.uk) which promotes patient involvement in all aspects of biomedical research, and written up some exemplar case studies.[9, 10, 11] Co-design and co-delivery of research with patients and communities using “partnership” models is increasingly popular. [12,13]
While these and similar approaches have merits, all are designed and run by researchers (with greater or lesser efforts to achieve democratic governance); they are not led by patients. [14]
Governing patient-led research: scientific rigour and ethics

If patient groups are to undertake and/or commission research, academic input (to match patients’ priorities and questions with appropriate theories and methodologies, and to support analysis and writing up) and capacity-building (training patients in research methods and techniques) are surely essential to ensure that patient-led research is scientifically defensible (and hence has credibility with clinicians and policymakers). [25,26]
Notwithstanding the potential for such creative conflict, a significant challenge for patient-led research is that it is often (understandably) underpinned by “cognitive passions”—that is, deeply-held, emotionally-charged perspectives on a condition. While such passions give energy and focus to a patient-led research agenda, they may mean that patients find it difficult to approach research into their own condition with the equipoise expected in science.
However, while one high-profile patient-scientist conflict seemed to generate negative tension (chronic fatigue syndrome [28]); there are many counter-examples of conflicts that were highly productive, including in rare diseases, HIV/AIDS, mental health, and breast cancer. [22,29,30,31]
Trish Greenhalgh is professor of primary care health sciences at the University of Oxford.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2019/11/1...owards-an-institute-for-patient-led-research/

see also this thread:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/rethi...d-health-care-greenhalgh-weiringa-et-al.5777/

 
However, while one high-profile patient-scientist conflict seemed to generate negative tension (chronic fatigue syndrome [28]); there are many counter-examples of conflicts that were highly productive, including in rare diseases, HIV/AIDS, mental health, and breast cancer.
That's...rather insulting, as well as surprisingly ill-informed. She's seriously saying there have never been any 'negative tension generating' conflicts as regards HIV/AIDS or mental health? I seem to recall there being many back when HIV/AIDS wasn't being taken seriously, and still ongoing in the mental health sphere. Is she another of the SMC and/or PACE bunch perpetuating their invented narrative of 'ME/CFS patients vs scientists' rather than the reality of ME/CFS patients vs bad science? Can't understand why she would specifically single out ME/CFS patients as she did there, unless that was the case.
 
I expect she's read the media hype and listened to the Sharpe/Wessely propoganda and hasn't bothered to dig deeper. Lazy thinking.

This tweet of hers was posted as Montgomery retweeted it:


upload_2019-10-30_2-25-49-png.8920


Once again, the BMJ saying all the right things about patient engagement in the abstract, and then being driven by ignorance and prejudice when ME/CFS patients dare point out truths that go against researcher's interests. A decade ago I would sometimes fall for it.
 
I expect she's read the media hype and listened to the Sharpe/Wessely propoganda and hasn't bothered to dig deeper. Lazy thinking.
Indeed, I now see by looking at her reference for that claim, reference [28], that it quite laughably is an old Guardian article from 2011 called 'Chronic fatigue syndrome researchers face death threats from militants'! Oh dear. If that's an example of the type of 'research' she does on a subject prior to writing about it, it doesn't bode well for this new institute she proposes (if it is going to be she who will be leading it).
 
“Wanted to highlight this bit
Derya Unutmaz said:
The last comment I can make is that in the past several months, we have tried to engage the community through the opportunity of the center, both through social media as well as through the blog. We hope to increase these efforts. I have to say that the response and feedback I have gotten has been overwhelmingly positive, and we hope that the community continues to appreciate our efforts to provide insights into our scientific process and progress.

We also love the feedback we get – both the critical feedback as well as the ideas about the research. I have received several ideas from patients that we have actually decided to incorporate into our work. We learn from the patients and the community, so it is a very beneficial relationship for us as well that we hope we can cultivate.” ( @Andy )


See above #6 https://www.s4me.info/threads/scientist-spotlight-derya-unutmaz-m-d.1886/

Anyone care to tweet above to Tricia Greenhalgh

Edit: tidied up.
 
She's was keynote speaker today at a conference in Oslo.



I hope someone told her about the Norwegian research council's huge success with involving ME patients in distributing an earmarked allocation for ME research.
 
That's...rather insulting, as well as surprisingly ill-informed. She's seriously saying there have never been any 'negative tension generating' conflicts as regards HIV/AIDS or mental health? I seem to recall there being many back when HIV/AIDS wasn't being taken seriously, and still ongoing in the mental health sphere. Is she another of the SMC and/or PACE bunch perpetuating their invented narrative of 'ME/CFS patients vs scientists' rather than the reality of ME/CFS patients vs bad science? Can't understand why she would specifically single out ME/CFS patients as she did there, unless that was the case.
It pretty much makes the case. The "conflict" in ME is precisely disastrous because the patient community has been contemptuously excluded and maligned by the researchers who dominate it despite having no useful understanding. This is actually a great example supporting the need for patient engagement, as we are the best example of what happens with the exact opposite of patient engagement, when the needs and demands of the patients are not only dismissed but enthusiastically contradicted and proudly disrespected.

Problem is most people don't get that it's precisely because the researchers have successfully shut down the community from being heard at all, maligning us so they can maintain a stranglehold that serves only their interests at our expense.

Especially when noting the success of AIDS, where the exact same thing happened until things were turned upside down and a maligned community was turned into a full-fledged partner. This is what needs to happen with ME and those examples make the strongest case for why ME is thoroughly broken because of a rejection of any involvement from the community.

Which is all seriously ironic in a discussion over patient engagement, pointing at the very best example of what happens when patients are completely shut down, even maligned. That Greenhalgh would actually promote the viewpoint of researchers who did the exact the opposite of what is being proposed is impressive, as she is repeating the very conflict by taking their word as gospel truth while dismissing ours, the very cause of this conflict.
 
It seems that the idea is to use a donation from the family of a researcher with diabetes to set up doctoral fellowships in pseudo-subjects like primary health care and translation health science. It looks extremely patronising - a way to encourage CSWDNRTB*.

We are doing way better than this. S4ME has at least one patient representative seriously involved in planning an MRC research proposal. We have Keith Geraghty doing real research with some funding at least for the time being. Patients and carers are intimately involved in steering committees and funding charities. In the US patients and carers have been deeply involved in real research for a good while. Not faffing about with 'translational health science'.

This looks to me like a political sham - no more than a fresh tablecloth on the same old feeding trough.


*citizen scientists who do not rock the boat
 
However, while one high-profile patient-scientist conflict seemed to generate negative tension (chronic fatigue syndrome [28]); there are many counter-examples of conflicts that were highly productive, including in rare diseases, HIV/AIDS, mental health, and breast cancer.
Citation 28 is a newspaper article. Not very scientific!
McKie R. Chronic fatigue syndrome researchers face death threats from militants. Accessed 9.7.17 on https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/aug/21/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-myalgic-encephalomyelitis. The Guardian 2011;21st August
 
Is there not an ironic conflict between supposed support for patient involvement in research and also extolling the views of Sir SW? Who can forget the famous

In addition, we believe that understanding of the postviral fatigue syndrome has been hindered by doctors who suffer from the condition also
researching it
?

Well, not me, obviously.
 
We are doing way better than this. S4ME has at least one patient representative seriously involved in planning an MRC research proposal. We have Keith Geraghty doing real research with some funding at least for the time being. Patients and carers are intimately involved in steering committees and funding charities. In the US patients and carers have been deeply involved in real research for a good while. Not faffing about with 'translational health science'.
To be fair she does mention these situations
Another kind of knowledge that is unique to the patient experience (and ripe for research) is the collective knowledge generated by online communities. The growth of the “social web” has enabled the emergence of large (and increasingly research-aware) communities of individuals with a particular disease. Some of these communities share ideas for research and self-organise to undertake self-experimentation, self-surveillance and even analysis of their own genomic data. [23, 24]

Oh gosh, what am I doing reading this and commenting. Am I losing my mind? Time to log off......
 
Arts Council England created several of these, when someone decided that purchasers of arts provision for children & young people (schools, mostly) needed to be 'put in touch' with artists. Doing so, they said, would enable more and better art to happen.

They created bridge organisations, full of non-artists on nice salaries and pension schemes, which sucked up lots of the funding that used to go to the artists. The artists had never expected a salary or a pension scheme, but due to ever-decreasing funding, were now able to earn less than they did 20 years ago.

Many were forced out of working with young people altogether, taking with them their talent, expertise, and the decades of experience they'd previously been able to pass on to the next generation of artists.

Schools, needless to say, had had extensive direct contacts with artists since the theatre-in-education movement began in the 1960s. Many teachers were skilled at embedding the arts within the curriculum, at recognising excellent practice when they saw it, and at finding ways to involve artists in CPD as well as young people's learning. Only now they had fewer to choose from, and they were often under-trained and less experienced.

I'm sure it'll be equally marvellous in medical research.
 
I see no way of doing a response so I used the commenting system. Could have been better, my mind is pretty foggy today, but here goes in case it's censored:
It's odd that you point at ME/CFS as an example of failed patient engagement when it has in fact been an example of not only refusing to engage with the patient community, but of aggressively maligning and holding in high prejudice.

You cite as example a 2011 article about alleged death threats. In 2016 those claims were presented to an ICO tribunal by the PACE researchers, who were in turn admonished for having made "grossly exaggerated" claims. This is in the public domain, there is no justification to repeat claims that have been rejected by a tribunal, which has a much higher burden of evidence than the court of public opinion in which the ME community is regularly insulted and mocked.

In 2007, a NICE committee drafted guidelines for ME/CFS where patient input was systematically ignored and demeaned. Those guidelines have been official since then, and unofficially most of its substance has been used in practice for 20 years. The result, which has been warned insistently and consistently by the patient community, has been a complete and total disaster.

It is even more puzzling that you would cite the example of AIDS as successful patient engagement, when in the early days of the AIDS crisis this community was vilified and demonized as grotesquely as the ME community is today. Progress was precisely marked by a complete turnaround, in turning a hitherto vilified patient community into full-fledged partners, rather than militant activists, a trope still used today to dismiss all input from the ME community.

For the whole 20 years of a strictly supply-side approach, there have been consistent surveys and reviews showing not only complete stagnation but actual regress. Many ME patients who were involved before the current BPS paradigm took over 3 decades ago report the same: that as a direct result of completely shutting down and maligning the patient community, things have actually gotten worse.

This is the source of this "tension": complete and total disaster in outcome as a direct result of total rejection of patient engagement. ME advocates who tried to engage during this period warned consistently, and accurately, of the exact outcomes we see today. Because as primary stakeholders, it is the patients who experience the outcomes, good as well as bad. As the most basic common sense would suggest, the idea that millions are refusing treatment that is safe and effective out of pettiness is ludicrous and absurd.

ME/CFS is just about the most textbook example of how to fail at engaging with and addressing not just the wants but the most pressing needs of a patient community, with predictably disastrous consequences. So that you would use it, citing debunked claims as support, as an example of failed engagement when it is precisely the fact that engagement has been aggressively rejected is of great concern moving forward with plans for patient-led research.

ME/CFS patients have one of the lowest health-related quality of life ratings among all major diseases and much of it is the direct result of guidelines and misrepresentation hostile and indifferent to patient experience. It makes your point better than any other example, that genuine patient-led research is critical, serving as an example of how to fail to the maximum extent that it is possible to fail, in actually managing to not only stall but actually regress an entire disease for 3 decades.

Among the ME community are many smart, passionate people who had successful careers in medicine, science and other rigorous professions. Having involved those voices would have lead to a completely different outcome than the current BPS disaster, exported worldwide to universal failure.

Australia has found the very same outcome, having recently published a report acknowledging that their 2002 guidelines, bullied through with about the same contempt and hostility to patient input, have been a complete and total failure. Many other countries are facing the same tragic reality of medicine having been complicit in doing enormous harm, largely because of a process that has been hostile to patient input.

Pay attention to successes, but even more to failures. In the whole history of medicine it is hard to find a more complete and shameful example of failure as ME/CFS, a failure marked by contempt for patient input and that will inevitably serve as textbook example for how not practice medicine for decades to come, if not further. The facts speak for themselves, but only if you pay attention to them.
 
Some of these communities share ideas for research and self-organise to undertake self-experimentation, self-surveillance and even analysis of their own genomic data. [23, 24]

How condescending can you get? This forum determines the direction of MRC research projects, no faffing about with examining people's own DNAvels.

I don't suppose Dr Greenhalgh has ever influenced an MRC project.
 
I would like to take a look at my genomic data, once it's done and I can get my hands on it.

This evening I asked my brother again about worsening of symptoms after exertion and what he described is very similar to what I have. He agreed that it's cumulative and delayed. He is significantly less ill than I am.

Maybe we will be able to contribute to solving the ME/CFS puzzle.
 
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