UK BACME ME/CFS Guide to Therapy 2025

As others have pointed out, I think the two most potent arguments are that

1) there is no robust evidence in favour of this approach, and that

2) gradual symptom-contingent pacing up was tested in PACE and failed.

3. No thankyou

4. In my view BACME just talked themselves out of a job.

This is my observation. Its not a theory, its not an opinon. It does remain to be seen. I have good reason, sound mind, and I am not a lobster.
 
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There is also the point that symptom-contingent pacing up has been tried in many studies, not just PACE. And, not only is there no credible evidence of benefits, there is evidence of harm. For example, the Magenta trial, published in 2025:


You can see there that GET was defined effectively in the same way as BACME pacing up - establish the baseline, then slowly increase in a symptom contingent manner. Activity management was the same except it took into account cognitive activity as well as physical activity. It is nonsense for BACME to suggest that 'pacing-up' is some new clever patient-centred thing that leaves all the problems of GET behind.

Here's the conclusion for Magenta:


Significant proportions of participants deteriorated physically while on the therapies:

Importantly, there was evidence of damage done to the mental health of participants, with one participant hospitalised with suicidal ideation, with the paper acknowledging that this was possibly attributable to GET. There was that Swiss survey that found people with ME/CFS reported harm to mental health as a result of these therapies.
Thank you, that’s a much better example than PACE.

@Trish was this trial ever brought up in your conversations with Gladwell?

Is there any way to make BACME aware that their pacing up has been tested and not only failed, but also caused substantial harm?

That might be a more persuasive argument to them than «you’re making things up».
 
BACME says this (p23):

If the person has achieved a level of stability, consider with them the pros and cons of a re-introduction of a valued activity. Consider a small, slow exploratory increase in one aspect of physical, cognitive or social activities – reinforcing flexibility as needed and periods of stability between increases (refer to the sections of NICE Guideline (2021) relating to increasing activity: 1.11.2 and 1.11.13).

Support to increase confidence in setting up experiments that are likely to be successful but with full recognition that it might not be successful at this time.

Spend time making sense of arising symptoms & experiences. Is any altered experience of symptoms to be expected with a new activity, or is it a warning sign that the experiment is not appropriate at this time?

Regularly review progress with goals and ensure an increase can be sustained prior to moving forward with additional goals. A period of consolidation at this new level is important before considering a further increase, and this period of consolidation needs to be determined by the individual.

Always this tap-dance around 'flexibility' and 'as needed' (as decided by whom?) and 'likely to be successful but...', and putting the responsibility on the patient to know whether they're doing too much or not enough, but at the same time telling them they're not actually competent to decide for themselves so they need 'support to increase confidence' etc. All to disguise the fact that none of this is based on anything solid.

I knew it reminded me of something when I first read it, and it's this 'Activity pacing strategy' from 1988 https://www.s4me.info/threads/care-...wnload-action-for-me.39801/page-7#post-550101
 
Also for all its fault, and it has many, the pacing in PACE was about pacing up gradually, not the actual meaning that we patients understand and apply, and the entire message out of PACE was that it was inferior to GET. Which it wasn't anyway.
Actually after writing this my brain flagged that it remembers a few such trials for LC. I'm pretty sure somewhere close to a handful, but they are small enough to ignore, whereas PACE was big enough to pretend that it showed something it did not.
 
On rereading it, this line sums up the core issue for me:

Is any altered experience of symptoms to be expected with a new activity, or is it a warning sign that the experiment is not appropriate at this time?

They're seeing the problem as 'patient does a bit more, feels tired/sore, gets anxious/discouraged, just needs a morale boost to carry on.' Rather than 'patient cleans the kitchen counters, then can't have a shower for the rest of the week because they can't stand up for more than a minute,' or 'patient has a remote GP appointment, then can't talk to their family for the rest of the day because the noise of voices is too painful.'

If BACME were able to make the experiment of reconceptualising 'experience of symptoms' as 'decrease in function', some of them might have a lightbulb moment.
 
So the pacing up part seems to be less rigid, but it’s also always searching for a way to do more. There is technically a recognition that it might not always work, but there is also an explicit assumption that there exists increases that are likely be successfully sustained.
I can't help but notice that most of this language is built on FOMO, fear of missing out. It strongly reminds me of gambling marketing when they talk about continuing with the CBT because the possible gains are worth it and if you don't pursue you will have wasted all the effort/money you put in the slot machine before.

Most of the language is just mirage-peddling: you could recover, don't you want to recover? you could be missing out on the best opportunity to recover, all you need is to submit and comply and your wildest dreams will come true because only you stand in the way of achieving them. It borrows from MLM and financial scams more than any other source. For sure this has zero to do with health care, health or anything like it.
 
I think part of human rights is not to be tortured, maybe we can top trump their “right to rehab” with that, seeping as they are championing something proven to cause harm…
Technically, though not actually, competent health care based on scientific evidence is a human right, and is the law in many countries. And yet here we are. This is an argument they can 'win' on a technicality, being the only ones in the race by disqualifying competitors, but it's not because they're right. In fact they are completely wrong about it, but it's not as if right matters more than wrong here.
 
Technically, though not actually, competent health care based on scientific evidence is a human right, and is the law in many countries. And yet here we are. This is an argument they can 'win' on a technicality, being the only ones in the race by disqualifying competitors, but it's not because they're right. In fact they are completely wrong about it, but it's not as if right matters more than wrong here.
The human rights argument might be worth including in any letters. There is no obligation to accept experimental treatments, on the contrary there is a right to be able to refuse them.

Here’s the intro in an overview by WHO, my bolding:

Health and human rights​

The right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health is enshrined in several international legal instruments including the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It includes freedoms and entitlements. Freedoms include the right to control one’s health and body (for example, sexual and reproductive rights) and to be free from interference (for example, free from torture and non-consensual medical treatment and experimentation, particularly relevant for persons with disabilities). Entitlements include the right to access quality health services without any discrimination.

A human rights-based approach to healthcommits countries to develop rights-compliant, effective, gender transformative, integrated, accountable health systems and implement other public health measures that improve the underlying determinants of health, like access to water and sanitation.

This means countries must ensure legislation and health policies and programmes respect and advance the realization of human rights. Research shows that proactive measures to comply with human rights obligations help countries improve substantive equality and build resilience to shocks. For example, applying a human rights framework to reproductive health can help us identify how preventable maternal mortality and morbidity results from a variety of human rights violations including discrimination and lack of access to quality health services.

We are being forced to endure their «treatments» because they want to protect their jobs, reputations and egos. It’s abuse, plain and simple.
 
The human rights argument might be worth including in any letters. There is no obligation to accept experimental treatments, on the contrary there is a right to be able to refuse them.

Here’s the intro in an overview by WHO, my bolding:


We are being forced to endure their «treatments» because they want to protect their jobs, reputations and egos. It’s abuse, plain and simple.
If it’s not experimental they will be able to cite evidence.
The retort to anything they cite was already written - by NICE!
These are all NHS staff proposing ways of working in the NHS, this isn’t a “private clinic” seeing 50 people.
 
On rereading it, this line sums up the core issue for me:



They're seeing the problem as 'patient does a bit more, feels tired/sore, gets anxious/discouraged, just needs a morale boost to carry on.' Rather than 'patient cleans the kitchen counters, then can't have a shower for the rest of the week because they can't stand up for more than a minute,' or 'patient has a remote GP appointment, then can't talk to their family for the rest of the day because the noise of voices is too painful.'

If BACME were able to make the experiment of reconceptualising 'experience of symptoms' as 'decrease in function', some of them might have a lightbulb moment.
Or just as common ‘patient is constantly ignoring those symptoms and pushing thru because they are in situations all the time with no choice due to this attitude that’s been set up for them for decades, leads to no life, no dignity and constantly increasing disability’

I think the PEM concept has been deliberately distorted in order that it can be misused. Very many of us already do just have to ignore and the like and it ends badly - they are trying to step away from the ‘step back to not get worse’ idea by making it sound more complicated than it is

And their whole inserting themselves is specifically about removing our autonomy to speak for our own bodies and not allow us to even choose which indignities we focus energy on over others (which is what the illness does to us) but instead force us to waste energy on things they with their misguided idea of how limited our lives are ‘shoulds’ so we get to do neither AND get worse.

Then on top of it have certain personality types suggesting the getting worse is a sign of our not managing ourselves rather than their overshadowing and by doing so making life even more impossible ie adding further disability with their Michael Winner they just need to calm down dear bs as ‘the cause’.

This as a document is the equivalent of removing wheelchair ramps and adding in stairs for wheelchair users. It’s adding disability by inciting the world to be more inaccessible to us and see us as pests when requiring adjustments because we are energy limited in how we do a phone call (prepping first, making sure people are seeking to understand and not just chatting for the sake etc) trying to time it for when we are less unwell etc into some sort of nonsense about ‘sensitive persons’ or fear.

They had four years to talk to people like us so they were for the first time not undermining us with slurs but getting across messages we needed others to understand but instead have chosen to rumour monger bs if someone reads this. So when we try and advocate for our needs we are now competing with back-briefing from this nonsense that undermines us and encourages people to think we are deluded and what we are saying is mad.

To me this at least tells me what those people think of us in their own delusions. Not much reading between the lines needed. It’s tropes strung together. To try and make them sound more convincing as if they aren’t just a bunch of tropes to others by putting a fake story behind it. It’s pretty outrageous as a state of affairs.

And shows that if there are some in bacme who did join because they were not on board with the misogynist nonsense but thought they needed to be part of it even if they agree it needed massive change, well if those exist in that group then they need to start working out a way forward now and the decks need to be cleared of those obsessed with this old fart coercion control-y stuff. It needs an overhaul. At least they’ve confirmed that the same old people whilst they are given the freedom and temptation ie lack of oversight to carry on with their same old how they think of patients and what they want to supply whether it works or not don’t have it in them to really change at all.

So this ‘we’ve changed’ crud is the main bit that needs to be highlighted is nonsense and gaslighting really. And utterly about invalidation and silencing of those who needed to bring up previous behaviour anyway, that they not only had the right to do , but were absolutely supposed to - because you can’t actually do the job without addressing and naming the problems to be addressed so that they understood it.

They might be behaviiurusts in belief (punishment and coercion forcing behaviour change whether that helps or harms or has anything to do with the issue) but as most of them aren’t qualified or licensed in psychology it’s no surprise they conveniently forget that for themselves the biggest predictor or future behaviour is past patterns of behaviour.

And the bulldozing just when it was supposed to be ‘come to Jesus moment’ for them has now been confirmed as the best response they are prepared to give. The change needed was to find those who wanted to be educated or don’t want to be uneducated and running on old delusions and inappropriate tropes and feelings towards patients and yet the attitude we’ve had back has been clear they find patients opening their mouths unacceptable. That shouldn’t be allowed for anyone for any patients not just me/cfs so I have big concerns about the choice that we shouldn’t be listened to and just a few sought out to say what they want to hear etc.

What a mess.
 
I think the PEM concept has been deliberately distorted in order that it can be misused. Very many of us already do just have to ignore and the like and it ends badly - they are trying to step away from the ‘step back to not get worse’ idea by making it sound more complicated than it is

and there's no mention of PEM at all in that section about increasing activity. Like the only way they imagine things going is 'the new exertion feels bad to start with but then you get used to it'. Not 'feels OK the first time or the first few times and then you crash', which is the reality many of us have to deal with over and over again.
 
I have read through the document and what strikes me mpre than anything is the vast amount of guff about collaboration and holism and engagement and regulation that leaves me not one iota better informed than when I started. There is no content. Nothing is specified and nothing is justified.

We are told that it is 'active therapy' yet it is hard to find any actual therapy in it. The biology, such as it is, is vague and inaccurate. There is no indication whatever as to why there should be a need for a therapy team. One well-informed person could advise a patient in much more detail than given in this document.
 
I have read through the document and what strikes me mpre than anything is the vast amount of guff about collaboration and holism and engagement and regulation that leaves me not one iota better informed than when I started. There is no content. Nothing is specified and nothing is justified.
I wonder if it’s intentional that they write guff or if they actually believe the guff makes sense?

I’ve only encountered this level of guff in business when it’s very clear that the person in charge really does not care about the quality. So it’s often a case of not prioritising it, not a lack of ability per se.
 
p. 31
In the development of the guide, it was felt that training professionals in the delivery of ME/CFS therapy was only a beginning. In order to embed good practice and a flexible needs-led service, then supervision from another ME/CFS therapist would be essential to maximise
learning for the therapist and the service user. We suggest the establishment of a network of supervisors from different professions who are experienced in ME/CFS and the contents of this guide, who can offer individual and team supervision either in person or via
videoconferencing.

Jobs for the boys (and girls).
 
I wonder if it’s intentional that they write guff or if they actually believe the guff makes sense?

I guess they think the guff makes sense because their entire training is based on guff. But there is also a huge amount of politically correct justification that is clearly a response to a perception that this is what is needed to justify what they do and their salaries. 40 years ago there was guff but not in this sort of quantity or in such an evasive presentation, where it seems that something is being said but if you look you cannot find anything but preamble and platitude.
 
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