UK:ME Association funds research for a new clinical assessment toolkit in NHS ME/CFS specialist services, 2023

All NHS clinics will have outcomes measured in some way or other, including the ones you mention, there is benchmarking, service evaluation frameworks etc

Actually not. In medicine you treat people according to evidence and do not expect to judge whether that has been beneficial. As I mentioned before, you cannot judge that by 'audit', even though that was popular in the 1990s. It rapidly became clear that is was a bogus substitute for reliable trials, just as these PROMS are.

You can usefully evaluate waiting times, and politeness and pharmacy queues, but not treatment. That is done by trials.

The fact that rehab people will look at you as if to say you are mad if you point this out is merely an indication of how dumb they are. I trained in rehabilitation and decided not to join them.
 
Actually not. In medicine you treat people according to evidence and do not expect to judge whether that has been beneficial. As I mentioned before, you cannot judge that by 'audit', even though that was popular in the 1990s. It rapidly became clear that is was a bogus substitute for reliable trials, just as these PROMS are.

You can usefully evaluate waiting times, and politeness and pharmacy queues, but not treatment. That is done by trials.

The fact that rehab people will look at you as if to say you are mad if you point this out is merely an indication of how dumb they are. I trained in rehabilitation and decided not to join them.
Again, that’s off topic from the question though.
In a scenario where we are (factually) today, are PROMs bad for pwME or is just this one?
 
Personally I think PROMS for ME are a danger full stop (even if they were 100% ethical, and say, designed by us) because we don’t know whether we would have got better or worse without their intervention.

In addition, anyone newly-diagnosed will have a little “boost” from being seen and given hope, so short of their “patient experience” being shouted at by a sergeant-major and forced to do press-ups (actually possible in some clinics) it will seem positive to them.

It’s entirely possible to introduce standardised care throughout the NHS by adopting the NICE guidelines.
 
In a scenario where we are (factually) today, are PROMs bad for pwME or is just this one?

Well, given there is no benefit for patients and they have the potential for harm, I'd suggest they have to be bad.

They're nothing more than a distraction, which is presumably why they're not used in hospital clinics offering treatment and management. There's no time for filling in questionnaires, there are only so many consultants and specialist nurses and a lot of patients to look after.

Other than some special panels, patients aren't routinely involved in service evaluation. I'm suspicious of the reasons they're being recruited here, and think it may be because they're worried—with some justification—that the clinics don't offer value.
 
Well, given there is no benefit for patients and they have the potential for harm, I'd suggest they have to be bad.

They're nothing more than a distraction, which is presumably why they're not used in hospital clinics offering treatment and management. There's no time for filling in questionnaires, there are only so many consultants and specialist nurses and a lot of patients to look after.

Other than some special panels, patients aren't routinely involved in service evaluation. I'm suspicious of the reasons they're being recruited here, and think it may be because they're worried—with some justification—that the clinics don't offer value.
I think they’re worried the clinics cant be assessed as offering value, which is slightly different.
They will be replaced by an app in any case.
 
They will be replaced by an app in any case.

As much as I find healthcare by app entirely unacceptable, at least they don't force people to travel to clinics to receive their non-treatment.

It's also easier to opt out by saying you were too unwell or don't find them accessible (instead of confessing that if you had filled them in, you'd have been playing the 'write a story one word at a time' game).
 
As much as I find healthcare by app entirely unacceptable, at least they don't force people to travel to clinics to receive their non-treatment.

It's also easier to opt out by saying you were too unwell or don't find them accessible (instead of confessing that if you had filled them in, you'd have been playing the 'write a story one word at a time' game).
I would be 100% “lost my phone/sim/reading glasses” soz.
 
* MHRA Guidance: Medical Devices - Software Applications (5 files):

Medicines & Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (for real); maybe the 2023 upgrade, of MHRA's Software Regulation, upset some minority, so a big fuss began in 2023, maybe?

- "Information on when software applications (apps) are considered to be a medical device and how they are regulated."

On that page: the 1st file (linked below) is 43 pages giving 2 streams, one for us users, the other for them developers and manufacturers, all over-ruled by our MHRA:

Medical device ... stand-alone software ... including apps

- utterly butterly brilliant, we have caught up. This is a 21st century Regulation. User-friendly layout. Modern. Up to date. World class leader. Bulls-eye goal. This is only my impression upon 1st glance.

Can it tell me how to evaluate profiling tools and report potential harms?

Next on that page are - 1 page each - Appendix 1. 2. 3. and 4. on:

* Symptom checkers

* Clinical calculators

* That "drives or influences" the use of a device

* Field Safety Warnings and End-of-Life (tool's life) notification

well yes indeedy
 
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Actually not. In medicine you treat people according to evidence and do not expect to judge whether that has been beneficial. As I mentioned before, you cannot judge that by 'audit', even though that was popular in the 1990s. It rapidly became clear that is was a bogus substitute for reliable trials, just as these PROMS are.

You can usefully evaluate waiting times, and politeness and pharmacy queues, but not treatment. That is done by trials.
This seems to me to be the key issue to use to torpedo this thing, rather than getting bogged down in arguments about the quality of the tool. The problem would be the existence of the tool.

We might not expect the clinics to listen (turkeys, Christmas) but I would expect the MEA to listen.
 
The problem would be the existence of the tool.

I'm a bit foggy about who wanted it brought into being.

Was it the NHS, or were they just offered the opportunity?

Was it MEA seeing the way things are going in some parts of the NHS*, and deciding to try and preempt the development of an ME/CFS one?

In the latter case, there might be an opportunity to convince the NHS that they're too badly designed to be of any use, and that a much more effective assessment tool already exists.


* Mainly, I suspect, the bits that are supposed to deliver expert healthcare without doctors. I can't see many doctors agreeing to use these things.
 
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This thread has moved so fast, I'm having trouble keeping up. We have 140 posts since the latest PROM was posted by the MEA for us to test 10 days ago.
I have decided not to read back over them all, so I'm sorry if what I post has already been discussed, and I've missed important points.

I have read the first few chapters of the book Sarah Tyson recommended to me on Facebook as a good starting point for understanding how they analyse the data and create scores from questionnaires.

The book is by Ann Bowling who is a sociologist who focuses on quantitative social science and is listed on the book as a professor of Health Sciences at the University of Southampton.

The book title is Measuring Health: A review of subjective health, well-being and quality of life measurement scales.
It has a chapter introducing concepts such as functional ability, positive health, subjective well-being and quality of life.
The next chapter is called Theory of Measurement, and includes basic stuff about types of data and the different types of measurement used, then more detail about weighting and scaling etc.
The rest of the fat heavy book is chapter after chapter discussing dozens of questionnaires that are used to measure all the different aspects of function and well being.

My conclusion from reading this is that we are being subjected to the particular approach to health care based on the social sciences, not on medicine. The concern is more about what we do and don't do in all aspects of our lives, and how we feel, rather than on treating disease.

This whole approach is a mix of rehabilitation medicine, health psychology and sociology, and is largely applied to chronic disabling conditions like ME/CFS, where a mix of behavioural advice and social care are seen as central to health provision, not medical care.

In order for the clinicians (mostly physios, OTs and psych therapists) to prove their worth to the health and employment services, their value in cutting our use of physician services and push is towards getting back to social and economic functioning, these services use subjective questionnaires (PROMs) to generate data about their patients to show they are helping us effectively.

Since they can often do little or nothing to improve our physical or cognitive functioning or symtoms that are directly caused by our disease, they design questionnaires that include stuff about non medical aspects of our lives, like social, work, family, emotional and sexual functioning.

And since they don't have any tools to affect the disease, they create treatment programs that occupy our time with blather about diaries and baselines and positive thinking and acceptance, and micromanaging our lives in totally unrealistic ways, and getting us to repeatedly fill in lengthy and ambigous questionnaires.

Sorry, I seem to have diverted off into an angry rant. I'll stop and try to collect my thoughts about the data analysis stuff, and try to write some notes on what I think are the particular flaws in the latest questionnaire.

This stuff all makes me so angry. If we had a specialist physician led service that focused on diagnosis, medical symptom management, referrals to other specialists where necessary, and a structure of ongoing care by specialist nurses, who could call in physios, dieticians etc as needed, home care, ensuring people get the support they need etc, we wouldn't need or be subjected to any PROMs. They are simply not a feature of proper medical care.
 
Since they can often do little or nothing to improve our physical or cognitive functioning or symtoms that are directly caused by our disease, they design questionnaires that include stuff about non medical aspects of our lives, like social, work, family, emotional and sexual functioning.

And since they don't have any tools to affect the disease, they create treatment programs that occupy our time with blather about diaries and baselines and positive thinking and acceptance, and micromanaging our lives in totally unrealistic ways, and getting us to repeatedly fill in lengthy and ambigous questionnaires.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.


Sorry, I seem to have diverted off into an angry rant. I'll stop and try to collect my thoughts about the data analysis stuff, and try to write some notes on what I think are the particular flaws in the latest questionnaire.

Having seen this (my bolding)...:
In medicine you treat people according to evidence and do not expect to judge whether that has been beneficial. As I mentioned before, you cannot judge that by 'audit', even though that was popular in the 1990s. It rapidly became clear that is was a bogus substitute for reliable trials, just as these PROMS are.

You can usefully evaluate waiting times, and politeness and pharmacy queues, but not treatment. That is done by trials.
...I don't think that the way forward is to critique the flaws in the questionnaire. You will anyway just end up down a rabbit-hole where they can just ignore or wilfully disregard what will be a big list of detailed points. I think the best approach is to target the key issue, which is that, as Jo says, you can't measure the effectiveness of the clinic in this way. You should do proper trials on treatments, and then apply them if the trials show them to be effective. The assessment toolkit is fundamentally misconceived: they should never have attempted to create one.

That's a simple, powerful message, and very hard to dodge.
 
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.. drivel ... needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Sadly both the prime minister and the sec. state for health, together with the Guardian, the only public organ to attempt to be critical, all believe ...

How transparent is all this traded secrecy, when disclosure is required?

Our MHRA model is highly critical. As is any nation's regulator model, once set out to govern this trade.

Our Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) did catch up with all such Medical Device (Software) toolkits eg Guideline-based:

Clinical assessment, Nutritional guidance, Training and Knowledge

I could not check the broken links given over-night, but this next link goes back to the revised post with working links to:

- MHRA Guidance on Medical Devices (Software Tools) Regulation

Links now added for:

* Yellow Card system to report Potential Harms, being described, again

* Appendix 1. 2. 3. 4 (each is 1 page)

- Symptom checkers

- Clinical calculators

- Whatever "drives and influences" the use of a device

- Field Safety Warnings & End of Life notification (end of re-purposed tool-kit life)
 
Again, that’s off topic from the question though.
In a scenario where we are (factually) today, are PROMs bad for pwME or is just this one?
Although most are bad, and most professionals can't tell which are, the deeper problem is how they are misused. This discipline is basically doing the equivalent of taking a huge electric hammer and wielding it manually to hammer things down. It doesn't matter how well the electric hammer can work when used properly, they never actually use it this way.

To go with a common joke: it's a skill issue. We are dealing with people who simply lack the skills to do a good job with the tools they have, and so keep producing and using tools that are completely useless, even counterproductive.
 
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