Charles Darwin’s ailments are ‘typical of Lyme disease’ in UK - The Guardian

Discussion in 'Other health news and research' started by hinterland, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. hinterland

    hinterland Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    338
    MEMarge, andypants, rvallee and 9 others like this.
  2. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    6,398
    Location:
    Norway
    ME is another possible diagnosis which has been discussed about Darwin. Guess we'll never know.

    I read he tried among other cold, outdoor showers. Don't know if they were helpful for him.
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Australia
    You all won't be surprised to learn that guru Sir Simon Says is absolutely certain that Darwin was a somatoformer.

    It was in a doco about Darwin I saw around 15-20 years ago on cable (History Channel?), before I even had internet. I knew of Wessely then by name and his basic position on ME/CFS, but not anything about him as a person or how he operates.

    What struck me about him was his utter certainty about his diagnosis. Not a glimmer of self-doubt.

    Like all megalomaniacs and cultists.
     
  4. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    USA
    According to this article:
    Of course, there was a time when peptic ulcers were considered a self-reinforcing product of "emotional stress." That time has passed. Has anyone alerted Sir Simon, I wonder?
     
  5. ladycatlover

    ladycatlover Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,702
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    Unfortunately the article you quote isn't available in European Countries due to data protection.

     
    andypants and Invisible Woman like this.
  6. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    53,666
    Location:
    UK
    I have read elsewhere a suggestion that Darwin may have had ME. That doesn't of course preclude him having a stomach ulcer as well. I read a biography of him years ago that described his later years working at home on his evolution experiments and his writing that he was significantly debilitated.
     
  7. Cinders66

    Cinders66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,228
    “While hypochondria undoubtedly played a part in Darwin’s misery“

    How on earth can they know that !

    Just think if he’d been around today he might have been put on exercise and CBT, I see that chronic Lyme isn’t even recognised, what are all those people with persistent symptoms post Lyme infection being diagnosed with?
     
  8. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    USA
    Strange. It's just seems to be the website of a small county newspaper in Montana. It's a 2011 article by a local doctor about how peptic ulcers are now treatable with antibiotics.
     
  9. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    It is strange, if he might have had a condition resembling aspects of ME, that he was not diagnosed with neurasthenia. Are we not "reliably" informed that that was the fashionable diagnosis for all things ME-like?
     
  10. ladycatlover

    ladycatlover Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    3,702
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    Wikipedia has a reasonable page on Darwin's health, though I admit I've only scanned it briefly. Poor Darwin, he really did have a bad time of it! :emoji_cry: There's an interesting list of the possible ailments that have been suggested as causes for Darwin's ill health.

    @Forbin, I found a page suggesting Darwin suffered from various gastrointestinal illnesses, it's a report from a historical medical conference in Maryland. I wonder if it might be what the article that you quoted may have been based on.
     
    andypants, Pyrrhus, Forbin and 3 others like this.
  11. Cinders66

    Cinders66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,228
    Wasn’t that reserved more for women ? It’s also odd the article doesn’t mention the ME and IBS possibilities, perhaps because they don’t recognise them as genuine illness or perhaps because they won’t consider that a great, esteemed medical scientist had them.
     
  12. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    USA
    I would have thought so, just because the word conjures up images of 19th century tintypes of women splayed on fainting couches - but it turns out that it was mainly men who were diagnosed with neurasthenia, which was thought be a consequence of the fast-paced, energy-sapping qualities of American urban life in the second half of the 1800's.

    This 2016 article in The Atlantic is quite hilarious in relating how non-specific the diagnosis was. It makes the late-1980's notion that neurasthenia was synonymous with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome seem ridiculous, simply because neurasthenia was apparently synonymous with nearly everything, including physical diseases and forms of mental illness that had not yet been distinguished.
    For some "modern" researchers to proclaim that, "Oh yes, we've seen CFS before, back when it was called neurasthenia," is just ludicrous, as the 19th century diagnosis would have captured just about everyone whose illness was not recognized back then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
    MEMarge, rvallee, hinterland and 7 others like this.
  13. adambeyoncelowe

    adambeyoncelowe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    2,736
    I think class was also a factor. The Wikipedia page talks about professionals, and those with idle time (presumably because they could afford it), being more likely to get the neurasthenia label too. So a rich wife of a politician or lawyer might get the more respectable diagnosis, while a working class woman might be a hysteric.
     
    Forbin, Pyrrhus, NelliePledge and 3 others like this.
  14. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    I think there may be something that needs examining in the question of whether neurasthenia was predominantly a male or female diagnosis. There seems to be potentially a discrepancy in the evidence. I have just been checking Shorter's article in the CIBA foundation book from 1993. He certainly describes it as largely a female condition. My recollection is that Wessely broadly follows that line. This does seem at odds with the overworked businessman type (not to mention the shell-shocked soldier). Further research is called for-as the saying goes. Is this another flaw in the model?
     
    Forbin, Pyrrhus, MEMarge and 2 others like this.
  15. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    13,937
    Location:
    UK West Midlands
    Agree with this but I imagine in reality any working class person with ME would just have to work until they dropped dead or end up in the workhouse and then dropped dead.
     
    Skycloud, Forbin, Sean and 3 others like this.
  16. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    USA
    The article I linked to above touches on the issue of class in the diagnosis of neurasthenia...
     
  17. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    I am beginning to wonder whether the papers printed in the CIBA book accurately reflect what was said in the presentations. In the discussion following Shorter's paper Buchwald states:

    I was interested Dr Shorter, in your reference to the differential application of diagnoses, and your suggestion that historically, people with similar complaints could receive different diagnoses according to their gender; for example, men were more likely to be given a diagnosis of neurasthenia, while women tended to be labelled as hysterics. To a certain degree these biases are still present today.

    I have been unable to locate this in the paper. I shall have a rest and look again.

    EDIT my doubts on this subject were first aroused on rereading the summary of the conference in the MRC papers in the National Archive files. It seems that either it is a poor precis, or different things were said to what the papers in the book indicate
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
    ladycatlover likes this.
  18. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    1,581
    Location:
    USA

    I'm not sure if you're looking for Shorter's paper "Chronic fatigue in historical perspective" from the May 1992 CIBA conference, but it can be seen here starting on page 6.

    The book was originally published in 1993, but this citation seems to say it was first published online in 2007.

    There's an S4ME thread on the psychosocial papers contained within the book here.
     
    chrisb likes this.
  19. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

    Messages:
    4,602
    Thanks for that. I have the book. Its just that I cannot see the reference to the male/female distribution in the paper, which is what made me wonder if different emphases were made during the actual delivery. I begin to wonder whether the whole Shorter/Wessely narrative about neurasthenia is designed to avoid the cliché in the room - hysteria.
     
    rvallee and Forbin like this.
  20. redbeard

    redbeard Established Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    A Realm of Eternity
    Darwins home in Kent ‘Downe House’ is today run by English heritage and is open to the public for an entrance fee of around a tenner.

    If anyone gets the opportunity I would recommend a visit, there were many indications of an illness very similar to ME.

    Darwin was mostly housebound for much of his life after falling chronically ill following foreign travel.

    Doctors could not determine the cause of ill health and suggested a psychiatric cause.

    Many different treatments were tried and hydrotherapy seemed to help somewhat.

    At the far end of the gardens (around 100 metres away) was a perfect pacing circle (200 metres) in a quiet wooded area, where he would walk and kick a pebble aside to record each circuit.


    Think the theory is he had a mitochondrial disorder however even with the limitations imposed by illness, he wrote many books including the Origin of Species during this time.
     
    Kalliope, chrisb, rvallee and 4 others like this.

Share This Page