Covid-19 - Psychological research and treatment

obeat

obeat

Senior Member (Voting Rights)
It would be great if this crisis killed off behavioural sciences. Asking people to change behaviour doesn't work. Wessely and Gerada media appearances have been flipant.
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This post was copied from this thread and some responses moved: Trial By Error: What Now?
 
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obeat said:
It would be great if this crisis killed off behavioural sciences. Asking people to change behaviour doesn't work. Wessely and Gerada media appearances have been flipant.
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from cbt watch
Corona Virus Response and Pathologising Normality
at a 1 day workshop I delivered on March 4th (‘Getting Back To Me Post Trauma’ ) I included the following slides, which with hindsight seem particularly relevant:

  1. Listen to The Story
    ‘ I’ve been back to Hong Kong a couple of times since the unrest began last Summer. A family member was terminally ill and died recently, his affairs are still in a mess. It was terrible there, I was frightened to go out because of gangs and you just don’t know who will be listening. I am worried about my family still living there, could be effected by the Corona virus’

    Imagine this person has presented for a mental health assessment. How do you proceed?
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Are We in Danger of Pathologising Normality?
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http://www.cbtwatch.com/
 
further post cbt watch
Test Those With Symptoms – A Message From The Pandemic To IAPT
29th March 2020
Without such testing for NHS staff we would be on the road to chaos. But the Government’s Improving Access to Psychological Treatment (IAPT) service makes no diagnosis of clients, directing them to whatever service the therapist deems fit. There is likely to be a myriad different IAPT responses to client’s presenting variously, anxious about developing the Corona virus, saddened that they could not properly say goodbye to a loved one who died of the virus (?PTSD) or distressed that they cannot visit a loved one.
In jettisoning diagnosis IAPT has ceased to operate within the bounds of evidence based treatment (EBT). EBT is based on the belief that it is known that certain treatments work for certain conditions under certain circumstances. This applies certainly to the common mental disorders and is reflected in the NICE Guidelines.
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full post http://www.cbtwatch.com/test-those-with-symptoms-a-message-from-the-pandemic-to-iapt/#comments

eta: I also imagine that given the flaky way that 'recovery' is currently assessed under IAPT that recovery figures will be even less reliable as long as the pandemic continues and beyond.
 
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saw this "Professor Cherie Armour" and immediately had Stevie Wonder singing in my head.


"The project follows research from Kings College London relating to the psychological impact of quarantine." link doesn't work
"“One study reported that some longer lasting behavioural changes were seen such as vigilant hand washing and the avoidance of large crowds.”

er isn't that what we are being told to do ?
 
Neurological symptoms appear to be quite significant with COVID. I have seen several threads by MDs talking about getting patients that initially presented with neurological signs and symptoms that would otherwise had been missed had they not asked the right questions. I have seen several mentioning syncope, dizziness, nausea, autonomic symptoms. And I only mean early symptoms here, not even mentioning how common they are in overall presentation.

The MUS/FND ideology becomes a serious liability here. Should people continue to ignore neurological symptoms? When in fact paying close attention to them may bring benefits to rapid diagnosis? Especially as there is no time for thorough diagnosis, not that that ever actually happens. Will COVID patients in prodromal phase be shunted to IAPT, told to ignore their symptoms even as they become more prominent? Told to explore their emotions even as ignoring the neurological symptoms could be a threat to those around them?

Psychosomatics never consider the consequences of being wrong. It simply does not exist in their worldview. They are so assured of the infallibility of their beliefs that they can't even consider being wrong anymore, that it's all in the past or only has trivial consequences (nevermind how common it is for people with neurological diseases to be dismissed for years). It already was a chronic public health crisis but now it has become an acute public health crisis.

There truly has never been a better time to shut the whole thing down, even under false pretenses, and just allow everyone to save face while never having to admit it was a failure. Complete waste of resources, same with other attempts in some countries to push the FND angle or whatever. Those ideologies are a systemic weakness in addressing a pandemic where some patients may only present with mild neurological symptoms and where shunting them down the rabbit hole of psychomagics assures they will present a threat to the whole population.
 
Sly Saint said:
saw this "Professor Cherie Armour" and immediately had Stevie Wonder singing in my head.


"The project follows research from Kings College London relating to the psychological impact of quarantine." link doesn't work
"“One study reported that some longer lasting behavioural changes were seen such as vigilant hand washing and the avoidance of large crowds.”

er isn't that what we are being told to do ?
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Vigilant: keeping careful watch for possible danger or difficulties
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Yeah, as much as I imagine people dutifully washing their hands as instructed, somehow I really doubt anyone is doing it while watching over their shoulders, checking every corner and with a plan of escape in case of... what exactly? Karate-chop the virus? Flamethrow those droplets? Dart unsuspecting people not taking precautions?

Why is it that clinical psychology always changes the meaning of common words? And I wish I were using literally here in the wrong sense but seriously, it pretty much literally always does so. Or at least introduce superfluous variations of those words.

Hell, even avoidance seems odd.
n psychology, avoidance/avoidant coping or escape coping is a maladaptive coping mechanism[1] characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor.
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People are just following basic common sense instructions. Unless they don't mean the clinical psychology meaning but that's not clear at all. Seems to indicate a belief that people will develop a pathological version of that behavior, the same way rats can be taught to force others not to touch the button that shocks the entire cage, even not knowing why but simply because they learned the behaviors from others who socked them in the head.

No wonder they're struggling with communication when it comes to us. They violate all the main rules of clear communication, mainly: be clear in your words and don't make stuff up. Ugh, this is why we can't have nice things.

Somehow I think I could actually write the conclusion for them. Maybe this will be mildly competent for a change but that would be a rare thing.
 
Does anyone else get psych research fatigue?

No one is interested in hearing about & providing practical help and support, but falling over themselves to provide psych support once they fail to provide the practical support you need.

Honestly, it's gotten to the point I expect a pop up ad for psych research to somehow appear every time I open an flippin' envelope!

Golgafrinchams!

P.S I know there are some really good psychs out there. I do. Marks, Wiltshire, Hughes etc. This isn't aimed at you.
 
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I don't get it - this isn't 'isolation' like solitary confinement, even if you live alone like I do.

This is simply not being able to go out on a whim.

If people really need to go out they are allowed to.

TV's and the internet exist, unlike when in solitary confinement.

Mildly frustrating on occasion, but not psychologically damaging.
 
Nope, thought I was done, but I'm back....

I thought locking yourself up alone in your house and not doing anything, having stuff delivered, not having to work, watching as much TV or reading as many books as you'd like [edit - or in our case are able to] were all secondary benefits of being ill and as such perpetuated illness beliefs.

Suddenly, when it's happening to a non ME population, it's possibly detrimental to one's mental wellbeing.

So, once again, a field capable of holding two conflicting theories in the same time and space in their heads - it's a delightful luxury for us, but it's torture for others.
 
The only thing that has changed in my life currently are the peaceful quiet streets downtown. Everyday feels like Sunday. I'm enjoying it. I have only been outside twice (grocery shopping) in the last month. I wanted to go out for my regular walks in the evenings but the dead silence feels a little too spooky for me.
 
Wonko said:
Everyone's stopped trying to talk to me - it's a great improvement, for me, that there is no longer any expectation or requirement to 'engage' with complete strangers, that it's actively discouraged.
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My hairstylist sent out an email 2 weeks ago reassuring us that he has taken every precaution to keep his 'salon suite' completely disinfected, and that he is open for business. He rents a 'suite' so there is only him and his client. This would be the ideal time to go because he's an exhaustive talker and now he would be silent, possibly wearing a mask? In the past I have left his salon feeling completely exhausted from talking, but now I don't feel comfortable going there, let alone sitting in a chair with him talking downwards. Not good, even with a mask.
 
We had a severe foodborn illness outbreak with e. coli in Germany in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Germany_E._coli_O104:H4_outbreak

There was a european conference of psychosomatic medicine in denmark in 2012. One lecture at this conference was about:
„Psychosomatic outcome after infection with shiga-toxin-producing Escherichia Coli O104 (EHEC): Six months after the large EHEC-outbreak in Germany“
„Although most patients recovered well from gastrointestional,
nephrological, and neurological symptoms, a substantial number of patients developed new complaints such as irritable bowel syndrome or fatigue.“
I copied this at this time from a list with abstracts. I don't have a reference anymore because the link to this pdf is dead.

These patients had a very severe and well documented infectious desease. Nevertheless this didn't stop claims that the ongoing health problems of these patients are psychosomatic.:grumpy:
 
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Wonko said:
Everyone's stopped trying to talk to me - it's a great improvement, for me, that there is no longer any expectation or requirement to 'engage' with complete strangers, that it's actively discouraged.
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My autistic grandson has perked right up :)

His 6 foot distance from people walking the dog is the new normal and no one is "being helpful" and encouraging, read nagging him to do things he isn't comfortable about. (The other side of the family is not understanding about autism!)
 
Mithriel said:
My autistic grandson has perked right up :)

His 6 foot distance from people walking the dog is the new normal and no one is "being helpful" and encouraging, read nagging him to do things he isn't comfortable about. (The other side of the family is not understanding about autism!)
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Bah sucks - I've started to have visitors!

I have a lovely neighbour (next door but not the attached one) who I occasionally talk to if I happen to see her when I'm in the front garden. I happened to mention that my daughter had received the NHS 'shielding' letter as my carer. I don't mind neighbours knowing this as it actually helps them to see me as seriously ill (whereas I keep the fact that I have M.E. quiet due it being so misunderstood).

The next day another (actually also very nice) neighbour called by to check if I was okay and whether I needed anything (he did leave adequate distance after knocking on my door). This has never happened before! I do love living in a small hamlet, but it makes me realise I have been sensible to keep my 'secrets' (such as being autistic and having M.E.) quiet - the grapevine is very active!
 
rvallee said:
Yeah, as much as I imagine people dutifully washing their hands as instructed, somehow I really doubt anyone is doing it while watching over their shoulders, checking every corner and with a plan of escape in case of... what exactly? Karate-chop the virus? Flamethrow those droplets? Dart unsuspecting people not taking precautions?

Why is it that clinical psychology always changes the meaning of common words? And I wish I were using literally here in the wrong sense but seriously, it pretty much literally always does so. Or at least introduce superfluous variations of those words.

Hell, even avoidance seems odd.

People are just following basic common sense instructions. Unless they don't mean the clinical psychology meaning but that's not clear at all. Seems to indicate a belief that people will develop a pathological version of that behavior, the same way rats can be taught to force others not to touch the button that shocks the entire cage, even not knowing why but simply because they learned the behaviors from others who socked them in the head.

No wonder they're struggling with communication when it comes to us. They violate all the main rules of clear communication, mainly: be clear in your words and don't make stuff up. Ugh, this is why we can't have nice things.

Somehow I think I could actually write the conclusion for them. Maybe this will be mildly competent for a change but that would be a rare thing.
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CONSTANT VIGILANCE! @lunarainbows
 
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