Do you get post-exertional malaise from being outdoors?

[Alvin]

@Alvin So true about interactions, decisions, etc. taking a toll! I get PEM just from lying on my doorstep by myself, though. I'm so glad you brought up vibrations. I actually wanted to make a thread asking about that but thought I might be imagining it. Vibrations from air conditioning, the laundry machine, and the swaying of a building on upper floors are all draining. I like your point about being used to everything at home.

I never realized what uses energy until i didn't have it anymore. Its probably somewhat personal since all our brains develop differently but since the brain uses the most energy of any other single body part its requirements are going to cause us problems depending on our level of ME and how we do things in brain processes.
Finally we are probably on higher alert when we leave home, maybe even an evolutionary remnant because in a local environment we know whats going on outside is complicated and more out of our control. Sleep researchers have found we do not sleep as well for the first few nights away from home, this is a measurable neurological phenomenon, they call it First Night Effects. That said i am very loathe to prescribe behavioral traits to evolution because its not only damn near impossible to prove, its been weaponized more times then i can count.

A few times i have tried to figure out what ME is causing neurologically but i have not been able to make a good inventory, not only because i can't think straight but it probably varies from person to person and the ME gets worse it seems to change

Add to that ME affect the brains somehow and like a stroke it seems to affect things in a unique way to each person depending on where in the brain its affecting.

 

[Mij]

I find just that little extra effort of walking in snow exhausting, watching where I walk, trying not to slip, snow plows beeping everywhere- it's exhausting and I can feel my equilibrium going off. I'm able to power walk in the evenings (when it's normally quiet) for an hour a couple of times a week, but with the icy streets I only last 10-15 minutes.

 

[Forbin]

As others have mentioned, I suspect that outdoor sensory overload might contribute to PEM. If you have vestibular problems, you probably rely on your sight more than most people to provide information on your orientation/balance, but, in "grasping at straws" (i.e. visual cues) in that way, you become conscious of visual information that you normally ignore. It's a form of sensory overload and one can get a sense of being unable to focus while overwhelmed by visual input. I might liken this to watching an IMAX movie in one of those dome theaters - you just feel like you're taking in too much.

How this creates PEM might not be obvious, but it might be a simple as the reaction one gets attending a loud rock concert/light show... and feeling exhausted the next day. - - - Perhaps.

 

[Ravn]

What you've said about ozone is interesting. I've noticed feeling worse on days of high ozone whether inside or outside but haven't narrowed it down to times of day the way you have, as it's confusing to weed out what's causing what.

Just as I was idly speculating about ozone causing PEM I happened across someone with ME on another forum undergoing ozone therapy, presumably to reduce PEM (uncertain effect). Had never heard of ozone therapy but found a couple of papers, not related to ME, that would indicate ozone could have both positive and negative effects on us. Of course the delivery of ozone to the body in therapy is different to being exposed to it in the air. But interesting. Improving microcirculation could be a positive. On the other hand stimulating the immune system could maybe account for PEM symptoms, especially after time outdoors?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352003516300260

5.2. Stimulation of oxygen metabolism
Ozone therapy causes an increase in the red blood cell glycolysis rate. This leads to the stimulation of 2,3-diphosphoglycerate leading to an increase in the amount of oxygen released to the tissues. Ozone activates the Krebs cycle by enhancing oxidative carboxylation of pyruvate, stimulating production of ATP. It also causes a significant reduction in NADH and helps to oxidize cytochrome C. There is stimulation of production of enzymes which act as free radical scavengers and cell-wall protectors: glutathione peroxidase, catalase and superoxide dismutase and prostacycline, a vasodilator.19

5.3. Activation of immune system
Ozone administered at a concentration of between 30 and 55 μg/cc causes the greatest increase in the production of interferon and the greatest output of tumor necrosis factor and interleukin-2 that launches an entire cascade of subsequent immunological reactions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5985865/#ref23

New non-medication treatment modalities are suggested including ozone. Ozone has been utilised effectively for the treatment of different disorders for over 100 years. Its special properties incorporate immuno-stimulant, pain relieving, antihypnotic, detoxicating, antimicrobial, bio-energetic and biosynthetic activities with powerful wound healing properties. Ozone is capable of interacting with blood constituents (erythrocytes, platelets, leukocytes, and endothelial cells) and induces oxygen metabolism, cell energy and immuno-modulatory changes. Ozone can enhance the antioxidant defence system and stimulate the microcirculation in tissues [23].

 

[roller*]

ust as I was idly speculating about ozone causing PEM I happened across someone with ME on another forum undergoing ozone therapy, presumably to reduce PEM (uncertain effect). Had never heard of ozone therapy but found a couple of papers, not related to ME, that would indicate ozone could have both positive and negative effects on us. Of course the delivery of ozone to the body in therapy is different to being exposed to it in the air. But interesting. Improving microcirculation could be a positive. On the other hand stimulating the immune system could maybe account for PEM symptoms, especially after time outdoors?

ozone therapy bypasses the gut, i understand.
there are aerobic and anaerobic bacteria.

PEM could originate in the gut.
this could explain the immediate and delayed onset.

the question: why does exercise (oxygen exposure) not have such a overwhelmingly negative and lasting impact on other ppls microbiome?

perhaps montoya can find out more in the bicycle study.

the gut doesnt seem the place to fix, nothing seems to have lasting impact.
it looks more, as if there is something else that prevents its normal restoration.

 

[hedgehog]

Thank you for the responses! Some very good points have been brought up. As I'm able to, I'll edit the original post to include the additional PEM triggers and solutions people have mentioned and will credit you as well