Forward Me Group Minutes - 31st October 2017

[Andy]

In regard to the "not somatic or psychiatric" quote of Mark Bakers, I have sent this email to Forward ME.

And I have received this response

Dear Andy

It is what he said, but I understood him to mean that it wasn’t a question of ‘either or’ when it came to scoping and that, instead of putting illnesses into boxes they should be considered as a whole. I think that a change of mind-set was mentioned several times.

As we are staying in contact we will find out more as time passes.

With kind regards
Margaret

So she seems to take this more positively than we are. The problem I see is that "treating illnesses as a whole" seems to have led to undue influence being given to the psychosocial side in the past, so the only way to convince us is to avoid that happening again.

 

[Sasha]

That's a very good e-mail @Andy. We have been stuck with the 'not a real illness' psychosomatic labelling for 30 years. It looks horribly like that's where he's heading again. It is good to try to pin this down.

What I find so terrifying about his statement is that he doesn't even seem to consider ME psychosomatic. He seems to be placing it in a category that's neither of the body or the mind. But there is no such category, and he wants to put ME in there all on its own, if he's been quoted correctly.

What fresh hell is this?

 

[Sasha]

So she seems to take this more positively than we are. The problem I see is that "treating illnesses as a whole" seems to have led to undue influence being given to the psychosocial side in the past, so the only way to convince us is to avoid that happening again.

We crossed.

I agree, the 'holistic' approach has been used as an excuse to treat some illnesses as though they have major psychological components (despite a lack of evidence that that's the case) and to focus on tackling them through psychological approaches.

 

[TiredSam]

not somatic or psychiatric

It's easy to assume this means that a new category will be created just for us somewhere between somatic and psychiatric, but it's just as easy to interpret it as meaning that our new category will be on the other side of psychiatric and that our situation could get a whole lot worse.

Is Mark Bakers capable of speaking clearly? Until he is, I smell a rat.

EDIT: Forgot to say - mindfulness for back pain my arse. If that's the best example he can come up with ...

 

[chrisb]

Does the current model preferred by the quacks fulfil the criteria of being neither wholly somatic or wholly psychiatric?

Would not the concept of an illness triggered by physical causes but perpetuated by psychological ones fit this description?

 

[Valentijn]

Does the current model preferred by the quacks fulfil the criteria of being neither wholly somatic or wholly psychiatric?

Would not the concept of an illness triggered by physical causes but perpetuated by psychological ones fit this description?

Yes, it's how they describe ME/CFS in a psychosomatic framework. They say that symptoms are real, physical, and severe, but are entirely caused by behavioral maladaption triggered by erroneously believing that we are still ill after recovering from a normal infection or other event.

ME belongs in the biomedical category.

 

[Robert 1973]

not somatic or psychiatric

This sounds very like Professor Sir Simon Wessely’s “somewhere between psychiatry and medicine” quote.

I am very sceptical about everything that Prof Baker is reported to have said. He appears to be using the same ambiguous, obfuscating language to which we have become accustomed from the BPS crowd – giving a superficial impression of one thing but meaning something very different.

He is an intelligent man. If he wanted to be unequivocal about what he was saying he would have been. I hope I am wrong but I fear the worst.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

What fresh hell is this?

I think if you were of a particular religious persuasion that would be called purgatory. I guess once they put us there they need a mechanism for "purification". ... Perhaps that's where MUPS comes in?

 

[chrisb]

I think if you were of a particular religious persuasion that would be called purgatory

I think we should aspire to the first circle, or limbo (but without the dancing). Dante had the virtuous unbelievers assigned to it.

Unbelievers? Certainly.

Virtuous? We can but try.

 

[Viola]

This sounds very like Professor Sir Simon Wessely’s “somewhere between psychiatry and medicine” quote.

I am very sceptical about everything that Prof Baker is reported to have said. He appears to be using the same ambiguous, obfuscating language to which we have become accustomed from the BPS crowd – giving a superficial impression of one thing but meaning something very different.

He is an intelligent man. If he wanted to be unequivocal about what he was saying he would have been. I hope I am wrong but I fear the worst.

Yes i agree. Don't we all know ME is at the interface of psychaitry and biomedical medicine

 

[Moosie]

I’ve just made a complete mess of commenting on the ME Facebook page about issues raised here. I feel bad that I didn’t give @Valentijn credit for this info but writing is super hard for me and it all became too much. Bloody Facebook I hate it. Also would you want your name mentioned elsewhere on the internet? Don’t know what the protocol is with this. And are we supposed to publicise S4ME?

On another issue this is my 15th post people. I lurk no longer.

 

[Esther12]

Otherwise he wouldn't be lying about the statements of the neurologists and the various Royal Colleges.

I don't think we should jump to assuming that he was lying there, and other people made mistakes too. When there are a lot of details to remember, people can make slips. There are definitely things about those minutes which worry me though.

Does the current model preferred by the quacks fulfil the criteria of being neither wholly somatic or wholly psychiatric?

Would not the concept of an illness triggered by physical causes but perpetuated by psychological ones fit this description?

Yup, it falls perfectly in-line with their 'sophisticated' quackery.