Functional Neurological Disorder (FND) - articles, social media and discussion

:) Yahat fordn'ny dusrpsie me. And hour uneditend post looks very much lopke mine do before editi:banghead:ing.

Me too.

There you go, if only they'd listend to hs rather than their own voices! What's the pharse "llisten to your patients, they're telling ou what's wrong". By completing ignoring severe patients for so long they've completely missed athis symptom. :)
 
Like sausages and democracy, what actually happens behind the curtain in medicine can be quite ugly.

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Recurring chest pain and other cardiac symptoms that cannot be adequately explained by organic pathology are common and can be associated with substantial disability, distress and high healthcare costs.

Once again, add just one word, and everything changes.

Recurring chest pain and other cardiac symptoms that cannot be adequately explained by known organic pathology are common and can be associated with substantial disability, distress and high healthcare costs.

Yes and that’s a very important point but even then it doesn’t get us over the line to where we want medicine to be, because using that language still doesn’t exclude the possibility that all known organic pathology hasn’t actually been tested for or tested for appropriately.

This is why just changing the term FND to something else wouldn’t fix everything.

The other core problem besides the proliferation of cheap psychological labels that can be slapped on any set of symptoms in area of the body (see functional cardiac issues above) is the weakness of the diagnostic process for too many medical professionals. It’s as simple as that.

Instead of FND I could have had my symptoms labelled with another more factual/neutral term like idiopathic neurological issue or medically unexplained neurological illness or whatever.

That wouldn’t have helped me. It wouldn’t have actually been identifying the actual cause. It wouldn’t by itself let me know as a patient that everything had been done to exclude all known organic disease within reason.

it also wouldn’t stop other medical professionals, friends and family or strangers from assuming that this label *actually* means that it’s all in my head, even if the intention of it was fully to communicate that there is an illness that hasn’t yet been identified.

Just as previous doctors gave up on me by talking about stress etc, and previous neurologists gave up on me by diagnosing me with FND, if at the same points in my journey I had been labelled with another, better label (MUS - take your pick) then it would represent the same abandonment of me as a patient, the same lack of medical rigor, the same insufficient testing, the same lack of frankly just thinking with appropriate depth about my symptoms.

I only got an actual evidence based diagnosis of a physical pathology by refusing the FND label and insisting that I receive all appropriate tests to exclude known neurological (and other) illnesses.

Idiopathic illness X, medically unexplained symptoms, any term old or new would have represented the same failure of medicine in my case.

They would have missed the actual existing, physically present condition that was waiting to be proved with the right test. It’s a mystery just isn’t going to cut it when you’ve failed to actually do your job properly.

Why did I have to be the one conscious of the possibility that my symptoms (or some of them, I have a LOT) were caused by SFN? Am I a neurologist? Am i a doctor? Did I go to medical school for 5 years?

No.

So what’s going on here? The problem was not identifying potential causes and working systematically to exclude them - it wasn’t just that there’s this name FND for this highly dubious (I’m being polite) supposed clinical entity, it’s that they were FAILING to identify the actual cause which is a known physical pathology. They weren’t thinking it through. They didn’t know enough. They didn’t care enough. They were bad at their jobs.

Because of the weakness of their process they couldn’t even identify SFN as a logical explanation, so they never tested for it.

Or they didn’t understand how one actually tests for SFN and they thought that EMG and NCS tests could pick it up, when they can’t. That would be a straight up lack of understanding of their own field. Later on when seeing more neurologists I had learned this myself and so I knew it was nonsense when they argued it was unnecessary.

None of this would have been improved by giving me another label that isn’t FND and terminating the diagnostics process there. If I hadn’t researched and understood, if I hadn’t pushed and pushed, if I hadn’t slapped down sloppy nonsense ‘practice’ then I would be sitting here without knowing what’s wrong with me and without any physical evidence to point to to prove that my illness isn’t psychological.

Now of course I agree the name and clinical entity FND is huge problem. Of course. I can’t see the letters without getting irritable.

And of course the term and clinical entity invites bad diagnostic practice itself because it gives medical professionals a tantalisingly quick and simple diagnosis that involves minimal testing. Its existence invites its own abuse as a diagnosis, even beyond the shadiness and deception in its background.

But beyond that we are often just confronting a sloppy, lazy, unscientific approach to diagnosis.

We’re talking about doctors without up to date knowledge of their field. We’re talking about shortcuts piled upon shortcuts piled upon shortcuts. We’re talking about overworked doctors wanting quick diagnoses. We’re talking about doctors who over-estimate their own abilities. We’re talking about a sheer lack of imagination, not being able to think through the possibilities.

Right near the start of my sensory neurological symptoms I thought “it feels like my nerves are being damaged”.

Seven years later I had that damage confirmed. I’m just a layperson with limited biological or medical knowledge, but all I had to do to correctly intuit what was happening to my body was to experience my symptoms and think about how those symptoms could logically be produced biologically.

I followed a simple logical chain and extremely basic biological knowledge (uh, what is responsible for sensations in the skin?) and arrived at the right conclusion.

For multiple reasons I didn’t learn about SFN in the right context until many years later, but it should be obvious to somebody who went to medical school what could cause such symptoms.

I don’t know, I’m just so an angry. This is a terribly written, rambling post but I had to make this point. The arrogance of doctors is truly beyond all understanding when they can be this bad at their jobs, again and again and again.

It isn’t just FND and it isn’t just neurology. It isn’t just functional disorders, whatever area of the body they apply to. I see this sheer sloppiness whereever I go in medicine on my personal health saga.

Im sick to death of doctors taking a bit of history, doing 1-2 tests, saying they can’t find anything wrong and sending you off with an air of OOH LOOK AT ME AND MY TWO TEST RESULTS AND WHOLE 5 MINUTES SPENT THINKING ABOUT THIS IM SO PROFESSIONAL. That’s their idea of ‘thorough’ and I dread to think how many patients go misdiagnosed and undiagnosed and how much harm that causes.

The problem is deeper here. The whole profession needs to get its act together.

Because all of too often I encounter doctors where I think “is this seriously how you do this, is this seriously how it works in this field?” Most of the time it seems like they can’t identify anything and do the least effort possible.

Its very often either “we can’t find anything” to obvious symptoms or it’s them quickly making a dubious diagnosis based on scant evidence, assumptions and bias.

I’ve had it up to here with the medical profession frankly. Based on my experience and accounts I’ve read, for complex health problems and chronic ones the medical field gets a D- grade.

There was something about the futility of the debate over the dubious (polite) term FND for the dubious (polite) diagnosis FND that triggered me. I’ve grown tired of dancing around the bush with this point when we are just talking about bad, sloppy practice in a field that couldn’t be more in need of intense rigour.

Rant over. Very ill and depressed today.
 
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Weirdly, I found since getting LC they I miss words and/or letters out when speaking, typing or hand writing.

The above examples @It's M.E. Linda refers to as "meep speak" and it always amazes us they we cna still understand each other perfectly

"all the right letters, not necessarily in the right order..." ;)

Totally agree with that last line. Too true @It's M.E. Linda !

The whole thing is also, however, definitely about having series of egg-timers whilst you are doing anything and having to learn to make judgement calls on what matters to get to the end of the series of things. Knowing 'that'll do/is the best you'll get today'.

And it is definitely exhaustion-related because practice/hammering at what norms would think would improve things (as per most other things with ME - like sleep ideas) is a great way to make things worse. Particularly if the suggestion is to 'do more' when exhausted.

What amazes me is how the more I edit the worse things can get. That is the really interesting bit. I've learned to go with 'first time' a bit more for various reasons having analysed the actual outcomes of each approach. There will just be massive differences from different moments. I circumnavigate a lot because I get anomia.

And cutting and pasting is a deadly exploit I think would certainly be interesting to a cognitive psychologist. It very much seems like a spatial task at the same time.


So I know with me that a lot of what people see as 'a problem' is actually not a problem but a solution that enabled me to do anything in the first place (or heads off an even bigger issue) and is a 'best fit' vs solutions/edits themselves exhausting to bring the whole thing down a further level of competency (editing tires me quickly, and vice versa is the thing most vulnerable to error as I exhaust, so there is a tipping point where I've made myself worse and therefore I'm typing over good text with worse text).

On a safer more specific thread it would be a discussion I'd be more happy to go into details on what I've observed over the years as it is quite fascinating and does I think give a bit of insight into what's going on in the right hands who would spot the detail of contexts etc.

But I've noticed that with well people the ones who have the biggest issues are those who choose to miss the point and/or either have their own issues (ie the cause of the problem actually isn't me), are uncharitable or aren't 'listening to understand' then reply to that with their own thoughts as an 'honest discussion' and participate, but engaging in rhetoric where they are just listening to summarise or hear what they want to and waiting for their turn to speak and nitpicking to distract the conversation anyway.

So I'm very cautious about those who might over-analyse it and come up with 2 + 2 = 5 . Or use it as an excuse to 'in the name of improving us' actually potentially cripple our ability to communicate concepts and things that we need to by humiliating us on stuff that in the bigger picture of choices matters less.
 
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This is why just changing the term FND to something else wouldn’t fix everything.
I agree that it does not solve the problem in itself. Not even close.

But labels do matter, they subtly and sometimes not so subtly manipulate the audience's perception and interpretation, which can be a powerful influence on how things unfold from there.

Once somebody has had their view biased it typically requires far more effort to unbias it than it did to induce the initial bias. (There is actually a formal name for that effect but I can't recall it offhand.)

The whole history of ME is a case study in exactly that kind of phenomenon.
 
Twitter thread by someone who was initially diagnosed with FND and Fibromyalgia, given Physical Therapy, meditation, yin yoga, and talk therapy, but subsequently received a diagnosis of May-Thurner syndrome (a condition whereby one blood vessel becomes compressed by another vessel against the spine).
I saw that on Twitter, it's excellent. Worth reading the whole thread for a detailed no-nonsense account of how assigning an FND label rather than investigating and diagnosing/treating the actual illness, can be dangerous. We know all this, but for anyone to whom this is news, it's a good eye-opener.
 
Forgive this possibly very ignorant question but:

Would it be accurate to say FND is basically a way to diagnose dysautonomia, whilst blaming it on the patient?
To FND ideologues, dysautonomia is definitely FND, but it basically encompasses pretty much all neurological symptoms that lack a firm diagnosis. Long Covid turned out to have been a major boon to them. Even more so as no one wants to deal with those issues.

The blaming it on the patients, though, 100%. Or whatever. They may use different words but when the solution involves believing in something and behaving in a certain way, it's a distinction without a difference.
 
NZ's Goodfellow Unit podcast: Functional neurological disorder with neurologist Matthew Phillips

At 6:38 he said:
In terms of what to look for, well I would say as a GP —well the consult times are so darned short — if you spend five minutes talking to a patient and they're giving out symptoms and they're still going and you're very confused then chances are creeping up that it's one of these. If they have a list of symptoms — that's known as the 'list sign' — that's actually an extremely reliable indicator that you're probably dealing with a functional neurological disorder. Or one of its cousins: there's other brain processing disorders from my perspective as well, so like chronic fatigue syndrome I think falls into this category, sort of a cousin of FND. As does fibromyalgia and irritable bowel syndrome.

https://www.goodfellowunit.org/podcast/functional-neurological-disorder
 
NZ's Goodfellow Unit podcast: Functional neurological disorder with neurologist Matthew Phillips

https://www.goodfellowunit.org/podcast/functional-neurological-disorder

Just incredible, really.

But for anyone from the outside who is sceptical about how astonishingly sloppy and unscientific diagnostic practices (and how casually doctors fall into them ) frequently are, this would serve as a great clear example.

If anyone harbours doubts that FND diagnoses are being handed out willy-nilly, this quote should dispel those doubts. Of course there is much, much evidence besides but none so succinct as this.

Just astonishing. But that’s the reality.

Let’s just rephrase this deeply depressing quote, let’s translate it.

“If you’re a doctor - someone who treats sick people - and you have a sick person who…complains about being sick, then lists more than one symptom and you get confused* then you can safely skip the whole search for evidence, testing of hypotheses, differential diagnosis and just go straight to slapping FND on them.”

Imagine saying this. Imagine letting it be known that this is how you practice medicine. Even worse, imagine presenting this complete failure as the best practice, the best way to approach such a situation.

What is the point of all the years of medical school and residency etc if this is how you end up approaching a diagnosis?

How can you present this as an evidence based, rigorous process of diagnosis?


*= you can’t IMMEDIATELY work out what the symptoms could be caused by, nor are you capable of understanding that these multiple symptoms may be caused by the presence of more than one illness, which could present a confusing picture


Mod note: We have created thread for this clinician here: New Zealand: Dr Matthew Philips - neurologist
and moved some posts there, although the posts are relevant to the FND discussion
 
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There is a very realistic case that FND overruns Long Covid before it does ME/CFS. Unless things change radically, it will happen sooner or later. It's a race between this and a breakthrough solid enough to overrule all the sunk cost spent by this point:
It's very alarming that @HSELive has told the health committee that all neurological symptoms in #LongCovid are neuropsychological - specifically FND. This highlights that they are not keeping up with research.
I think that HSE is the Irish health services?
 
So Long Covid Support have opened up a research involvement consultancy. It's details can be seen in the link. But they've quoted psychiatrist Dr Tim Nicholson in some of their images. This seems a bit confusing as he's basically an FND specialist, part of FND hope. He's a key player at Kings and the Maudsley. They've obviously worked together and he's an advisor. Why would they connect with an FND specialist?

https://www.longcovid.org/research/research-involvement-consultancy
 

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If you’re open to support from a range of health professionals working within the existing NHS structures then you don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Probably if you look into it at all you accept the narrative that FND academics/clinicians has moved on from conversion disorder mentality on face value.

Only if numbers of their members begin to question what they experience from FND professionals will the organisation begin to question.

because some ME/CFS people question the role of FND practitioners isn’t relevant as it’s not LC people
 
Experience: ‘I woke up with a Welsh accent’

"I kept my Kent accent through my adult life. Then in 2022, I developed functional neurological disorder (FND), a condition that disrupts how the brain communicates with the body. It caused mobility issues and seizures, but I would also sometimes develop a temporary vocal tic or slurred speech. So it didn’t come as a huge surprise when, one day in June 2023, I woke up and my voice sounded different."

...

"I’ve since spoken with a professor of neurology, who believes my brain has probably triggered the accent as a way of dealing with my FND. The specific way it controls the muscles in my face makes my accent manifest as Welsh – it’s all to do with how your tongue and mouth move. I don’t have nearly as many problems with slurred speech since my accent changed – somehow this is just easier for my brain. Though when my speech stars slurring again, my accent temporarily returns to my old English one."

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...y/24/experience-i-woke-up-with-a-welsh-accent
 
Experience: ‘I woke up with a Welsh accent’

"I kept my Kent accent through my adult life. Then in 2022, I developed functional neurological disorder (FND), a condition that disrupts how the brain communicates with the body. It caused mobility issues and seizures, but I would also sometimes develop a temporary vocal tic or slurred speech. So it didn’t come as a huge surprise when, one day in June 2023, I woke up and my voice sounded different."

...

"I’ve since spoken with a professor of neurology, who believes my brain has probably triggered the accent as a way of dealing with my FND. The specific way it controls the muscles in my face makes my accent manifest as Welsh – it’s all to do with how your tongue and mouth move. I don’t have nearly as many problems with slurred speech since my accent changed – somehow this is just easier for my brain. Though when my speech stars slurring again, my accent temporarily returns to my old English one."

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...y/24/experience-i-woke-up-with-a-welsh-accent

It is not completely unusual for someone following a CVA or head injury to develop a different accent. If the neurologist actually said that the brain somehow founded it easier to cope with an FND by speaking in a ‘Welsh’ accent it hardly inspires confidence in his scientific rigour.
 
I’ve since spoken with a professor of neurology, who believes my brain has probably triggered the accent as a way of dealing with my FND.

Perhaps PWME should try speaking with a Welsh Accent:

'Cariad. Sto-op, Look you.' perhaps.

It could deal with the ME/CFS very well.

I can see that it is nice to have an explanation but maybe the brain didn't actually know why it was using a Welsh Accent? Maybe the professor didn't know either?

It's as if FND is a Freedom Pass for neurologists conning people.
 
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