How does cognitive behaviour therapy reduce fatigue in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome? The role of physical activity, 2010, Wiborg, Knoop +

[Evergreen]

It was interesting that they withheld the actigraphy data from all of the primary publications and only published them in this study,

yes, that strategy was very effective in making the data disappear.

Well yes, that strategy was necessary to achieve the main aim of the trial:

The main aim of our multicentre trial was to show the effectiveness of CBT for patients with CFS.

I can't quite believe they wrote that in their paper, but they did.

 

[Utsikt]

Well yes, that strategy was necessary to achieve the main aim of the trial:

I can't quite believe they wrote that in their paper, but they did.

I’ve actually seen that quite often. The aim is to prove the efficacy, not test it. They might believe those are the same thing, for all I know.

 

[Yann04]

I’ve actually seen that quite often. The aim is to prove the efficacy, not test it. They might believe those are the same thing, for all I know.

Yep when you look at how studies like PACE were conducted. It’s glaringly obvious that PACE was an attempt to produce “evidence” that GET/CBT works, not an attempt to test if GET/CBT works.

 

[dave30th]

I can't quite believe they wrote that in their paper, but they did

yes, that's quite telling.

 

[dave30th]

ep when you look at how studies like PACE were conducted. It’s glaringly obvious that PACE was an attempt to produce “evidence” that GET/CBT works, not an attempt to test if GET/CBT works.

yes, it was conducted to prove that what they were already doing throughout the 90s and what they were already advising the NHS and insurance companies was "evidence-based"

 

[Peter T]

I can't quite believe they wrote that in their paper, but they did.

Was it Wessely or White that used the analogy of an ocean liner heading to a preordained port when describing PACE, presumably missing the point that the purpose of science is not to realise a predefined conclusion?

 

[Yann04]

Was it Wessely or White that used the analogy of an ocean liner heading to a preordained port when describing PACE, presumably missing the point that the purpose of science is not to realise a predefined conclusion?

I think Wessely wrote something about choppy seas but glorious voyage or something like that when describing PACE

 

[Evergreen]

Was it Wessely or White that used the analogy of an ocean liner heading to a preordained port when describing PACE, presumably missing the point that the purpose of science is not to realise a predefined conclusion?

I was looking for that quote today! I thought it was Geraghty in the Journal of Health Psychology but I can't find it so maybe it was someone else...

 

[Evergreen]

Here we go:

In this blog I will argue that HMS PACE did make it successfully across the Atlantic. Small corrections to the route taken were made on the way, but these were of little significance. The fundamental mechanics of the ship remained water tight and at no time were the ship or its passengers in peril until it safely docked exactly where it was supposed to. Storms continue to buffet the ship even as it remains in harbour, but none of these have damaged the ship to impair its seaworthiness.

https://www.nationalelfservice.net/...syndrome-choppy-seas-but-a-prosperous-voyage/

So that's where Wessely said it, and Geraghty mentioned the metaphor, but I can't remember who pointed out that you don't decide before the trial where it should end up and make corrections so it gets there.

 

[Peter T]

Thank you @Evergreen, even worse than I sort of remembered.

 

[Utsikt]

I wonder if they even realise that sailing a ship from one predetermined port to another doesn’t create any new information at all? It’s such a terrible analogy.

 

[Evergreen]

Oh look what Graham (RIP) had to say in a comment under Wessely's blog:

Graham McPhee
November 4, 2015
NEW CANARD PASSENGER LINE
Southampton to New York in 5 days

Canard has announced the successful first voyage of its flagship, the Queen Mary Pace. Built in Oxford to rigorous specifications, this sleek and sophisticated liner, with the latest engines built with Graduated Energy Transmission, has taken the world by storm with the first crossing in just 5 days.

Setting out from Southampton on 18th March, 2005, amid cheers from admiring crowds in the medical enclosure, it left harbour looking every inch the awesome and standard-setting giant that it is.

With everyone settled in and enjoying the cruise, the captain called together his senior crew and decided to make some minor adjustments to the course plotted. Informing the management back at Canard, these quickly took place, and a mere 5 days later, passengers found themselves at the quayside in Dublin.

“All changes were rigorously discussed with the senior crew,” explained the captain. “It was felt important to make changes that truly reflected the potential of the new engine arrangement. Dublin is an entirely normal destiny for cruise liners.”

A number of passengers complained, but, as management at Canard explained, “There are always vexatious passengers on any cruise. All decisions were taken in their interests, and, naturally, it would be inappropriate for passengers unfamiliar with the ways of the sea to be allowed to comment on such matters. The crew had unusually tranquil seas and clement weather to contend with: it is too easy to criticize from the sidelines.” The UK government, which invested heavily in this engineering miracle, recommends that everyone should experience this very effective service.

When questioned, 22% of the passengers said that they thought Dublin was much better or even very much better than they had realized: but another analysis showed that, actually, none of them ever ended up in New York, even two years later.

 

[Turtle]

Oh look what Graham (RIP) had to say in a comment under Wessely's blog:

Maybe this ship didn't even leave port.
The captain and his senior crew were just making waves themselves, by feasting, lots of booze, that made them feel seasick.
The fist that went overboard were the clients, they were not needed anymore.
Just bossing them around had made the hotshots feel powerful.
Do this, don't do that and when you don't do your homework, you'll stay sick.
But now it's party time.

But the clients were and are still drowning even at the port that was never reached.

 

[NelliePledge]

Oh look what Graham (RIP) had to say in a comment under Wessely's blog:

Genius

 

[rvallee]

I’ve actually seen that quite often. The aim is to prove the efficacy, not test it. They might believe those are the same thing, for all I know.

Since they already "know" that it works, then it really is.

Of course this is the opposite of how science works, but since it's widely accepted I guess that science is still vibes-based.

 

[rvallee]

Was it Wessely or White that used the analogy of an ocean liner heading to a preordained port when describing PACE, presumably missing the point that the purpose of science is not to realise a predefined conclusion?

Wessely. In the same advertorial, he presented himself as a neutral observer with no connection to the cruise ship. Despite having written the manual, having been involved in the process, and that this was basically his baby. I really doubt that he missed the point. I think he was actually boasting of how easy it is to get away with this, how they don't even need to pretend, because even when they get caught, nothing happens anyway.

Well, sometimes they get awarded for it and promoted far above their merit. Hard to expect any other kind of behavior given this. It's like when companies get caught doing something illegal, and get fined a pittance far smaller than the net profit they made from it. It may as well be a "Go for it!" certificate. Why would they bother following the law when it's more profitable to ignore it?