Hypothalamus volumes in adolescent [ME/CFS]: Impact of self-reported fatigue and illness duration, 2023, Byrne et al.

Discussion in 'ME/CFS research' started by SNT Gatchaman, May 23, 2023.

  1. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hypothalamus volumes in adolescent Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Impact of self-reported fatigue and illness duration
    Hollie Byrne; Elisha K Josev; Sarah J Knight; Adam Scheinberg; Katherine Rowe; Lionel Lubitz; Marc L Seal

    Adolescent Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS) is a complex illness of unknown aetiology. Emerging theories suggest ME/CFS may reflect a progressive, aberrant state of homeostasis caused by disturbances within the hypothalamus, yet few studies have investigated this using magnetic resonance imaging in adolescents with ME/CFS.

    We conducted a volumetric analysis to investigate whether whole and regional hypothalamus volumes in adolescents with ME/CFS differed compared to healthy controls, and whether these volumes were associated with fatigue severity and illness duration.

    48 adolescents (25 ME/CFS, 23 controls) were recruited. Lateralised whole and regional hypothalamus volumes, including the anterior superior, superior tubular, posterior, anterior inferior and inferior tubular subregions, were calculated from T1 weighted images.

    When controlling for age, sex and intracranial volume, Bayesian linear regression revealed no evidence for differences in hypothalamus volumes between groups. However, in the ME/CFS group, a negative linear relationship between right anterior superior volumes and fatigue severity was identified, which was absent in controls. In addition, Bayesian ordinal regression revealed a likely-positive association between illness duration and right superior tubular volumes in the ME/CFS group.

    While these findings suggest overall comparability in regional and whole hypothalamus volumes between adolescents with ME/CFS and controls, preliminary evidence was identified to suggest greater fatigue and longer illness duration were associated with greater right anterior superior and superior tubular volumes, respectively. These regions contain the anterior and superior divisions of the paraventricular nucleus, involved in the neuroendocrine response to stress, suggesting involvement in ME/CFS pathophysiology. However, replication in a larger, longitudinal cohort is required.

    Link | PDF (Preprint: MedRxiv)
     
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  2. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  3. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that's called 'grasping at straws'. Or 'grasping at bits of anatomy'.

    So, no difference in hypothalamus volumes, but they found one statistically significant relationship between two of the many things they measured, and there was another relationship that wasn't statistically significant but they still wanted to mention it.

    There's no mention in the abstract of the possibility that any change in brain part size might be related to the change of lifestyle that ME/CFS requires, rather than an intrinsic part of the pathology.

    This team is from the Melbourne Royal Children's Hospital. In relation to ME/CFS, Katherine Rowe is pretty sensible but Lionel Lubitz is diabolical, a dyed-in-the-wool BPS proponent with power over vulnerable children and their families. Sarah Knight has done some ok work but definitely hovers in the BPS realm. We've seen some of the others in ME/CFS research before too.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
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  4. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's important to note that they aren't saying that the ME/CFS group had smaller right anterior superior volumes than the healthy controls. I haven't looked at the data yet, but it's likely that the size of the right anterior superior volumes in the ME/CFS and healthy controls overlap to a great degree, as otherwise there would be a statistical difference between the two groups. What they are saying is that there was a relationship between the fatigue level reported by the 25 young people with ME/CFS and the size of this particular part of the hypothalamus, presumably with those reporting higher fatigue having smaller volumes. Healthy controls might have had similar right anterior superior volumes, but they didn't have fatigue.

    Maybe that's an interesting finding. For sure, it should be looked for in other imaging of people with ME/CFS. But, the chances are that it is just a cherry, plucked from the orchard created by the facts that 1. there are a lot of ways to slice and dice a hypothalamus and 2. they probably collected a lot of data from the young people on all sorts of things to use in regressions. Even if the difference is real, the chances are high that it is related to changes in lifestyle related to fatigue severity.

    I think it's worth thinking about how accurate any reporting of fatigue severity is likely to be in the relatively small ME/CFS group - I doubt that it is particularly accurate. For a start, the sample is unlikely to include young people with very severe fatigue. Most are probably clustered in the mild to moderate range. In that range, fluctuations in the illness will affect the levels of fatigue experienced and reported on any one day, fluctuations in a time scale that is unlikely to be relevant to brain volumes. Another thing is that a young person who has well-managed ME/CFS and is not pushing at the bounds of their PEM threshold may not actually have a lot of fatigue, but their PEM threshold may be a lot lower (and therefore their illness more severe) than someone who rates their fatigue level higher.

    It would be interesting to see what tool they used to measure fatigue, to consider its likely accuracy in measuring fatigue (as opposed to some other symptoms and behaviours) and in measuring the severity of fatigue.

    It would also be interesting to see how many regressions between participant characteristics and hypothalamus structure size they conducted, in order to find this one statistically significant one.
     
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  5. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, I regard this as a (useful) null result and didn't read much past "The primary observation from this study is that no differences in lateralised regional or whole hypothalamus volumes between the ME/CFS and matched control groups were identified." As you say, contorting sub-measurements to try and force a trend toward significance is grasping at straws.

    I'm not sure I follow what this right-hand graph with "corrected fatigue scores" is trying to do. The left graph seems clear enough: that there's quite a spread of measurements in both groups. Raw data has patients 0-50 and controls 50-100 (we are talking normal teenagers in the HC group, so "I feel tired’’, ‘"I feel physically weak", "I feel tired when I wake up in the morning"’, "I rest a lot" are to be expected.)

    The correction seems to be spreading 0-50 and 50-100 to 0-100 in both cases and overlaying the trend line, which to me looks like taking a hammer to the graph.

    Screenshot 2023-05-24 at 11.44.14 AM Medium.jpeg
     
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  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    The study is written up clearly. They use a statistical analysis approach that I'm not familiar with, so that makes it a bit harder to know what is going on.

    Brain measures
    They had data for volumes of whole hypothalamus (left and right) and 5 regions (left and right). That's 12 possible brain volumes.
    They compared each of those in ME/CFS vs controls. None of those 12 comparisons found any significant difference, at all.


    This study is part of a bigger study which collected a lot of data from questionnaires and cognitive testing. But this study focussed on fatigue and illness duration.

    Fatigue measure
    Fatigue was measured by the Pediatric Quality of Life Multidimensional Fatigue Scale - Child report. This scale has 3 sub scales: General Fatigue; Sleep/rest fatigue; Cognitive fatigue. Each one has 6 questions, examples are given:
    General fatigue e.g. I feel tired; I feel physically weak
    Sleep/rest fatigue e.g. I feel tired when I wake up in the morning; I rest a lot
    Cognitive fatigue e.g. it is hard for me to keep attention on things; it is hard for me to remember what people tell me

    These are converted into a 0 to 100 scale. Importantly, high numbers mean less fatigue. the paper doesn't say if there is a Likert scale associated with each question, or if it is just a yes/no response. The scale definitely has a problem with the respondent's frame of reference. A person with mild ME/CFS would answer 'yes' to 'I rest a lot' comparing themselves to when they were healthy, not really realising that they would be resting a lot more (and in a typically much more boring way) if they had severe ME/CFS. So, questions there, and some major problems too, I think.

    Illness duration measure
    4 point scale: 3-6 months; 7-12 months; 13-24 months; >24 months. From parent interview.
    About a quarter of each participant was in each group.


    Here are the charts relating to the one statistically significant finding that is reported - Right anterior-superior volumes.
    Remember that higher numbers on the Fatigue Scale mean less fatigue.

    Screen Shot 2023-05-24 at 11.37.04 am.png

    Looking at that data, I think it's pretty unlikely that there is a real difference here. There's a couple of outliers from the ME/CFS group that are having a big impact.

    (crosspost with SNT Gatchaman)
     
  7. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I think the correction is for differences in volume due to age, sex and total brain size. Which is probably fair enough.
     
  8. bobbler

    bobbler Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Or being over threshold just due to the discomfort of getting there and lying in scanner, maybe also being in PEM

    I get very antsy with this rewriting of a function which signals a body under physical stress ie doing more exertion than is ideal or in pain due to stimulus that isn’t doing much good as ‘stress response’ given the nonsense of rewriting that to the little anxiety fight or flight storytelling.

    That’s like telling someone who works on a building site they are ok to lift more than is safe according to HSE as long as they use the right mindset and keep themselves calm with the right breathing. Misses a hell of a lot of the picture and puts the Somatic Symptom Disorder tgat lot might then think came from ‘distress causing physical pain’ instead of worn out muscles or MSK injuries as the next ridiculous extrapolation
     
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  9. bobbler

    bobbler Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Indeed the power of having these tools when they were being developed/coming online was supposed to be studying patterns reactions and using additive and subtractive tasks in order to identify individual smaller component aspects.

    goodness knows for example why they can’t look at someone with ME/CFS and controls doing scan well-refreshed and then after a task - or even doing a task when tired or in PEM vs when not.

    It just seems criminal someone thinks running these scans just as is without such things tells you something about an active concept like ‘fatigue’ - for a start we should all really by now demanding there is some sort of fatiguability test alongside it, the concept is so poorly defined.

    would someone suggest they’d pick up on dyslexia by just scanning brains doing nothing once from a few kids in whatever state? It just seems such poor method gif these specific factors on the conditions under which scans were taken not to be defined given these scans should be libraries in order that they can be built up and compared eg with people under slightly different conditions doing slightly different tasks and so on. What a waste of money to let these people have scanners if there are conditions they must do these basics do they contribute to that wider cataloguing of knowledge.
     
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  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    They were just looking at the volume of bits of brain, which is a reasonable thing to do. I wouldn't expect the bits of brain to change in size with PEM or for the size to change quickly, although I could be wrong about that.
     
  11. RedFox

    RedFox Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Based on that graph...these researchers are looking up at the stars and drawing constellations.
     
  12. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Thread with some ideas about why I might be wrong about that here:
    Errors and other considerations in brain imaging
     
  13. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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