IV IG: Intravenous immunoglobulin infusions

If you go by anecdotes, I've recently seen at more anecdotes from people that had no response or even worsened from Immunoadsorption then people who profitted, one I also know personally who didn't profit.

Furthermore, most people who are at least moderately affected often report only certain symptoms, which are frequently only partially alleviated by immunoadsorption. Shouldn’t the improvements be much more pronounced if those GPCR AAbs were the sole cause of their disease? After all if IA is done right they decrease to almost undetectable.

All of those anecdotes are from people having an infectious onset (mostly covid) and heightened GPCR autoantibodies. Whilst it certainly is possible that people with ME may experience an improvement through immunoadsorption or B-cell depletion, I find it highly unlikely that the GPCR or especially the b2-AAbs are at the core of the pathology. Even more so as the amount of such AABs does not seem to have any correlation with disease and symptom severity.

In order to advance theories of autoimmunity, Scheibenbogen and colleagues would, in my humble opinion, need to move away from the GPCR antibodies (b2, b1, M1, M2, etc.) studied to date and be able to present something that at least begins to provide a more plausible explanation as to why certain individuals are responders and others are not.

Of course, afaik even with other autoimmune diseases, it is not always possible to predict who will benefit from a treatment and to what extent, but in most cases it is still better than the random 50:50 chance we have seen at the few uncontrolled trials with positive responses.

Yes, I’m with you on that, you can’t put much weight on anecdotes. For example, after seeing how well my colleague responded, I wanted to try immunoadsorption myself, but I first had my autoantibodies tested by two different labs: Labor Erde and CellTrend. One came back positive, while the other was negative. How can that be? Something clearly doesn’t add up.

And as you said, if these autoantibody findings were truly clinically meaningful, you would expect many more people with the relevant antibodies to benefit from the treatment.

So, if a subgroup really exists, the methodology would need to be improved substantially.
 
Hey everybody – I've been absent from patient communities for a while, but I wanted to give my long-term experience with IVIg. The tl;dr is that I think it helped to get me from mild ME/CFS and POTS to about 80-90% of my original health, with the ability to exercise without much (if any?) negative consequence and work a demanding full-time WFH job without ever really needing to take mid-day naps anymore.

I originally got sick in 2017, from an unknown virus that I got from a coworker (who also spent a few days exhausted, but then recovered). Before getting sick, I would sleep 8.5-9 hours a night and wake up with a huge burst of energy that was pretty sustained all day. Afterwards, a few weeks followed of 12 to 16 hours of sleep per night, which gradually fell to about 9-10 after a few months. Every winter for a few years I would decline, followed by a rebound in the summer. I exercised a lot and worked a full-time, in-person desk job, and often felt exhausted, headache-y, etc. I knew I had very mild to mild ME/CFS, but this was before the pandemic and it just became obvious that I wasn’t going to get any help, so I resisted learning anything about it and kept pressing on. Over the years, the winter declines got deeper and the summer rebounds got shorter and shorter, until around 2020 when they barely came at all (in retrospect, this may have been associated with greater exercise – I learned to ride a bike and started biking a lot). During good periods, I was at Bell 90, down to maybe 75 or 80 during bad periods.

During the pandemic, I was reading a lot more about Long Covid, and getting some hope that help might be coming, since it was obvious that I had the same disease from a different virus. I read this New York Times article and saw that Susan Levine was prescribing LDN with positive results, so I scheduled an appointment with her and got a prescription around February or March. I felt amazing taking it for about three weeks, then the effects quickly wore off and I could not bring them back.

In mid-2021, I got POTS (before this, I had no dysautonomia symptoms that weren’t also ME/CFS symptoms). It came on pretty suddenly, I suspect from the Covid vaccine but it wasn’t immediate (maybe two months after my second dose) so who knows. With POTS, just existing became uncomfortable in a way that it wasn’t when I “just” had ME/CFS. I fainted a few times, and started spending most of my life supine. I stopped exercising.

It was around this time that I started reading a lot about the illnesses. I begged Dr. Susan Levine for a Mestinon prescription over email, and she gave it to me. I felt pretty good for a very short period of time, and then declined again. Same story with midodrine.

Around this time I started getting involved in patient communities. Back when Twitter still existed, I was @postviraltrials there. Reading about BC007 and Carmen Scheibenbogen’s research, I shipped my blood to CellTrend in Germany. I was disappointed to not have any of the autoantibodies that they associated with POTS and Long Covid (see here), but I was positive for autoantibodies against TS-HDS. Lauren Stiles told me that that can qualify you for IVIg, so I found a doctor near NYC (Dr. Maria Muste) and saw her. She was intrigued by the autoantibodies and gave me a tilt table test (which I failed with flying colors), and also took a few skin biopsies. My lower leg nerve fibers turned out to be degraded compared to somebody my age (and indeed I did feel some mild tingling in my arms, and mild numbness in my feet). That three part test – anti-TS-HDS autoantibodies, a positive TTT, and a positive skin punch biopsy – convinced my insurer to let me go on IVIg (with some small fiber neuropathy-like indication, something like idiopathic immune-mediated autonomic neuropathy), which Dr. Muste prescribed at 1.2g/kg/mo.

I started the infusions and was disappointed to not notice any immediate difference. I tracked a lot of things, and nothing seemed better. I stayed on it for seven months, and then went off of it.

At the time I was desperate to find something that worked, and started literally traveling the globe looking for treatment, including to Mülheim in Germany to see Dr. Beate Jaeger (she found microcldts, though I had gotten Covid for the first time a few weeks prior; she prescribed me blood thinners, which did nothing) and going to Anchorage to see Dr. Luke Liu for an intensive course of stellate ganglion blocks (they did nothing). I did some whackier things (including giving myself two BCG vaccines, one of which left a scar – and not the type it’s supposed to!!). Nothing worked.

At this point I started to look back on my time on and off IVIg and I thought something Dr. Muste said, which was that a lot of patients think it isn’t working and then think about what they could do before and after they were on it and realize it was working, just subtly. I thought it was a bit ridiculous at the time – I was so sick, how would I not notice getting better? But I think she was right. I had less brain fog and fewer “fatigue days” (days where you wake up abnormally tired, are brain foggy all day, and have to take a nap or two) at the end of it than at the start. And then as I went off of the IVIg, I sustained it for a month or two and then started declining again.

So long story short, I went back on the IVIg and, over a few years, just kept doing better and better.

What really kicked it into high gear seemed to be, ironically (or not), exercise. At one point, maybe a year (I can’t remember) into this new course of infusions, I again felt slightly but not significantly better, but I figured maybe I should try an exercise program. I can't remember exactly what I was thinking – some combination of "maybe the psychosomatic people were right all along" to "maybe with IVIg I can do this" to "this isn't going to work and I'm going to prove my pessimism about my disease right." I started seeing a PT in David Putrino’s group. It was some sort of modified Levine or CHOP protocol, frankly I found it hard to differentiate between GET. But it worked. I felt a lot better as it ramped up and I started doing body weight exercises. It was almost the immediate boost of energy that I expected from IVIg but didn't get, at least at the start.

So I stuck with it until it advanced to body weight strength training, and kept on with the IVIg. At some point I actually increased my dose to 2g/kg/mo. (I switched to Dr. Mark Gudesblatt on Long Island, who both allowed me to do infusions closer to home and was into high doses), and started doing very real strength training, with weights. At some point I started riding a bike again. By this point I was actually exercising. Maybe there was something special about the gradual ramp-up in the beginning under the PT's supervision that made it all work better than it did when I was exercising totally unmedicated back in the late 2010s, but that seems hard to believe this many years on from it. I think the IVIg just allowed me to tolerate the same exercise I was doing before.

It took years, but I am about 80-90% back to normal now. I exercise a good amount (about 40 minutes of weightlifting around five times a week, and another two or three hours of riding a bike). I work a full-time but pretty demanding WFH job. I almost never get so tired that I need to take a nap, and I only very occasionally experience a very mild form of brain fog. I can stand in lines for an hour without feeling bad. The peripheral neuropathic symptoms (tingling and numbness in extremities) were never very bothersome, but those improved a lot. I cook fairly elaborate meals twice a day, with a lot of standing. I sleep around 9-9.5 hours a night.

I definitely am not cured – I would say just receiving effective treatment. I have kept on with the IVIg infusions, plus a ton of pills (2x 180 mg Mestinon, 3x 2.5mg midodrine, 2x 0.1mg desmopressin). I still do not feel 100%, or like I am even really headed there. I still wake up feeling exhausted, though it fades within a few minutes. I have to sleep an hour more every day than I used to before I got sick. I can’t really vary my bedtime much. When I get up in the middle of the night to pee, I still feel like a drunken sailor from the POTS. I still feel kind of POTS-y if I eat a ton of carbs in one sitting. I notice that I sway and generally move more when I’m “standing still.” Sitting for a while, I still sometimes get that coat hanger POTS pain in my shoulders (which is immediately relieved if I lie down), so I still work lying down except for video calls (which are like three hours a day). If I bike a lot in a day, I do notice I sleep more.

I can’t prove that it’s the IVIg. I've been too afraid to play around with my treatment since I started feeling better, so I keep taking all of the pills and the IVIg and even doing 45 minutes of tVNS a day (which I suspect does nothing but it's cheap and easy and I was doing it when I started getting better, so I'm afraid to mess with it). I've never stopped exercising since I started for more than a few weeks due to injury or travel (I have this fear that if I kept it to "old man exercises" – walking, some light bodyweight strength training – I would feel even better, but I don't want to know that because I like real exercise!). It’s been really disappointing to see the failures of various immunotherapy trials, especially the Vyvgart trial (which I became so obsessed with that at some point I made touch with about a third or half the patients in the trial and got invited into the group where they were all talking to each other – whoops, probably not great for the blinding!) and the ones in Germany. Nevertheless, since I was so active for a point in patient circles (though not much on S4ME), I wanted to share my experience.

I feel a little guilty for getting better and disengaging from advocacy and patient communities, but if you're on Bluesky, I am there at postviraltrials.bsky.social, still hitting repost when I see something about trials.
 
Hi @smitihsj,

To be honest, there does not sound to be much to make one think there is any cause and effect relation in your story. As indicated on another thread, 50% of people taking a sham treatment will get better, and if you report that post-hoc it will be even higher because you will report it on an up!

One of the problems for IVIg at least in Europe is that it is a human product with limited supply. People who absolutely need IVIg because of genetic immunodeficiency have had problems getting supplies and health systems have had to spend a lot of public money ensuring those supplies. We need trials.
 
Hi @smitihsj,

To be honest, there does not sound to be much to make one think there is any cause and effect relation in your story. As indicated on another thread, 50% of people taking a sham treatment will get better, and if you report that post-hoc it will be even higher because you will report it on an up!

One of the problems for IVIg at least in Europe is that it is a human product with limited supply. People who absolutely need IVIg because of genetic immunodeficiency have had problems getting supplies and health systems have had to spend a lot of public money ensuring those supplies. We need trials.
I’m not asking you to take my experience as a substitute for a RCT. I ran a whole Twitter account devoted to trials, I am aware that you cannot make a causal inference from one person’s experience. Somebody asked me how I was doing over email since I was very active in patient communities for years and then dropped out. I sent him an email, he said it was interesting and that maybe he’d post it here, I figured I’d just do it myself. I didn’t post it attempting to convince anybody of anything, I just wanted to share my personal experience so people who are interested in that (clearly not you and that’s understandable) can add it to their mental tally, and also so that the people who knew me knew where I went. It felt wrong to just drop out of patient communities when I got better without sharing what happened. I was active on Twitter but that no longer exists. S4ME seemed like the best place to post it, so I did.

But I do want to note, regarding your comment about post-hoc stories, that I am not somebody who has only appeared to post a positive experience with a treatment. While I never posted on S4ME when I was sick, I did report a lot on my experiences with various treatments over the years, especially on my Twitter page, and there are people here who probably remember me from there. My experiences with other treatments were never so clearly positive to me over a sustained period of time.

As for the sustainability of IVIg as a treatment if effectiveness is ever proven to a higher standard – yes, it is very limited. However there are anti-FcRn’s out there that can act as a synthetic alternative and could be competed down in price, and other mAbs with similar autoimmune theories behind them. So if it works, there are more scalable substitutes.
 
Can you explain how those would be substitutes for IVIG?
My understanding is that the theory is that IVIg resolves the issue of autoantibodies by replacing a patient's pathological autoantibodies with a health person's non-pathological antibodies (well, tens of thousands of healthy people's non-pathological antibodies); anti-FcRN's, like Vyvgart (but there are others), eliminate your pathological autoantibodies by degrading them (but do not replace them with anything else, hence their immunosuppressive properties). Vyvgart therefore substitutes for IVIg as a treatment for myasthenia gravis and CIDP, and presumably would for other autoimmune diseases that are treatable with IVIg as well (well, the trial for post-Covid POTS failed, which does not bode well for what I'm hoping is the case – ME/POTS/LC are autoimmune disorders and can be effectively treated with IVIg and anti-FcRn's – but let's ignore that for the moment...maybe it was poor trial design).
 
Hey everybody – I've been absent from patient communities for a while, but I wanted to give my long-term experience with IVIg. The tl;dr is that I think it helped to get me from mild ME/CFS and POTS to about 80-90% of my original health, with the ability to exercise without much (if any?) negative consequence and work a demanding full-time WFH job without ever really needing to take mid-day naps anymore.

I originally got sick in 2017, from an unknown virus that I got from a coworker (who also spent a few days exhausted, but then recovered). Before getting sick, I would sleep 8.5-9 hours a night and wake up with a huge burst of energy that was pretty sustained all day. Afterwards, a few weeks followed of 12 to 16 hours of sleep per night, which gradually fell to about 9-10 after a few months. Every winter for a few years I would decline, followed by a rebound in the summer. I exercised a lot and worked a full-time, in-person desk job, and often felt exhausted, headache-y, etc. I knew I had very mild to mild ME/CFS, but this was before the pandemic and it just became obvious that I wasn’t going to get any help, so I resisted learning anything about it and kept pressing on. Over the years, the winter declines got deeper and the summer rebounds got shorter and shorter, until around 2020 when they barely came at all (in retrospect, this may have been associated with greater exercise – I learned to ride a bike and started biking a lot). During good periods, I was at Bell 90, down to maybe 75 or 80 during bad periods.

During the pandemic, I was reading a lot more about Long Covid, and getting some hope that help might be coming, since it was obvious that I had the same disease from a different virus. I read this New York Times article and saw that Susan Levine was prescribing LDN with positive results, so I scheduled an appointment with her and got a prescription around February or March. I felt amazing taking it for about three weeks, then the effects quickly wore off and I could not bring them back.

In mid-2021, I got POTS (before this, I had no dysautonomia symptoms that weren’t also ME/CFS symptoms). It came on pretty suddenly, I suspect from the Covid vaccine but it wasn’t immediate (maybe two months after my second dose) so who knows. With POTS, just existing became uncomfortable in a way that it wasn’t when I “just” had ME/CFS. I fainted a few times, and started spending most of my life supine. I stopped exercising.

It was around this time that I started reading a lot about the illnesses. I begged Dr. Susan Levine for a Mestinon prescription over email, and she gave it to me. I felt pretty good for a very short period of time, and then declined again. Same story with midodrine.

Around this time I started getting involved in patient communities. Back when Twitter still existed, I was @postviraltrials there. Reading about BC007 and Carmen Scheibenbogen’s research, I shipped my blood to CellTrend in Germany. I was disappointed to not have any of the autoantibodies that they associated with POTS and Long Covid (see here), but I was positive for autoantibodies against TS-HDS. Lauren Stiles told me that that can qualify you for IVIg, so I found a doctor near NYC (Dr. Maria Muste) and saw her. She was intrigued by the autoantibodies and gave me a tilt table test (which I failed with flying colors), and also took a few skin biopsies. My lower leg nerve fibers turned out to be degraded compared to somebody my age (and indeed I did feel some mild tingling in my arms, and mild numbness in my feet). That three part test – anti-TS-HDS autoantibodies, a positive TTT, and a positive skin punch biopsy – convinced my insurer to let me go on IVIg (with some small fiber neuropathy-like indication, something like idiopathic immune-mediated autonomic neuropathy), which Dr. Muste prescribed at 1.2g/kg/mo.

I started the infusions and was disappointed to not notice any immediate difference. I tracked a lot of things, and nothing seemed better. I stayed on it for seven months, and then went off of it.

At the time I was desperate to find something that worked, and started literally traveling the globe looking for treatment, including to Mülheim in Germany to see Dr. Beate Jaeger (she found microcldts, though I had gotten Covid for the first time a few weeks prior; she prescribed me blood thinners, which did nothing) and going to Anchorage to see Dr. Luke Liu for an intensive course of stellate ganglion blocks (they did nothing). I did some whackier things (including giving myself two BCG vaccines, one of which left a scar – and not the type it’s supposed to!!). Nothing worked.

At this point I started to look back on my time on and off IVIg and I thought something Dr. Muste said, which was that a lot of patients think it isn’t working and then think about what they could do before and after they were on it and realize it was working, just subtly. I thought it was a bit ridiculous at the time – I was so sick, how would I not notice getting better? But I think she was right. I had less brain fog and fewer “fatigue days” (days where you wake up abnormally tired, are brain foggy all day, and have to take a nap or two) at the end of it than at the start. And then as I went off of the IVIg, I sustained it for a month or two and then started declining again.

So long story short, I went back on the IVIg and, over a few years, just kept doing better and better.

What really kicked it into high gear seemed to be, ironically (or not), exercise. At one point, maybe a year (I can’t remember) into this new course of infusions, I again felt slightly but not significantly better, but I figured maybe I should try an exercise program. I can't remember exactly what I was thinking – some combination of "maybe the psychosomatic people were right all along" to "maybe with IVIg I can do this" to "this isn't going to work and I'm going to prove my pessimism about my disease right." I started seeing a PT in David Putrino’s group. It was some sort of modified Levine or CHOP protocol, frankly I found it hard to differentiate between GET. But it worked. I felt a lot better as it ramped up and I started doing body weight exercises. It was almost the immediate boost of energy that I expected from IVIg but didn't get, at least at the start.

So I stuck with it until it advanced to body weight strength training, and kept on with the IVIg. At some point I actually increased my dose to 2g/kg/mo. (I switched to Dr. Mark Gudesblatt on Long Island, who both allowed me to do infusions closer to home and was into high doses), and started doing very real strength training, with weights. At some point I started riding a bike again. By this point I was actually exercising. Maybe there was something special about the gradual ramp-up in the beginning under the PT's supervision that made it all work better than it did when I was exercising totally unmedicated back in the late 2010s, but that seems hard to believe this many years on from it. I think the IVIg just allowed me to tolerate the same exercise I was doing before.

It took years, but I am about 80-90% back to normal now. I exercise a good amount (about 40 minutes of weightlifting around five times a week, and another two or three hours of riding a bike). I work a full-time but pretty demanding WFH job. I almost never get so tired that I need to take a nap, and I only very occasionally experience a very mild form of brain fog. I can stand in lines for an hour without feeling bad. The peripheral neuropathic symptoms (tingling and numbness in extremities) were never very bothersome, but those improved a lot. I cook fairly elaborate meals twice a day, with a lot of standing. I sleep around 9-9.5 hours a night.

I definitely am not cured – I would say just receiving effective treatment. I have kept on with the IVIg infusions, plus a ton of pills (2x 180 mg Mestinon, 3x 2.5mg midodrine, 2x 0.1mg desmopressin). I still do not feel 100%, or like I am even really headed there. I still wake up feeling exhausted, though it fades within a few minutes. I have to sleep an hour more every day than I used to before I got sick. I can’t really vary my bedtime much. When I get up in the middle of the night to pee, I still feel like a drunken sailor from the POTS. I still feel kind of POTS-y if I eat a ton of carbs in one sitting. I notice that I sway and generally move more when I’m “standing still.” Sitting for a while, I still sometimes get that coat hanger POTS pain in my shoulders (which is immediately relieved if I lie down), so I still work lying down except for video calls (which are like three hours a day). If I bike a lot in a day, I do notice I sleep more.

I can’t prove that it’s the IVIg. I've been too afraid to play around with my treatment since I started feeling better, so I keep taking all of the pills and the IVIg and even doing 45 minutes of tVNS a day (which I suspect does nothing but it's cheap and easy and I was doing it when I started getting better, so I'm afraid to mess with it). I've never stopped exercising since I started for more than a few weeks due to injury or travel (I have this fear that if I kept it to "old man exercises" – walking, some light bodyweight strength training – I would feel even better, but I don't want to know that because I like real exercise!). It’s been really disappointing to see the failures of various immunotherapy trials, especially the Vyvgart trial (which I became so obsessed with that at some point I made touch with about a third or half the patients in the trial and got invited into the group where they were all talking to each other – whoops, probably not great for the blinding!) and the ones in Germany. Nevertheless, since I was so active for a point in patient circles (though not much on S4ME), I wanted to share my experience.

I feel a little guilty for getting better and disengaging from advocacy and patient communities, but if you're on Bluesky, I am there at postviraltrials.bsky.social, still hitting repost when I see something about trials.
I hope this question doesn't come across rude, but are you absolutely sure that you had ME and not "just" POTS due to another illness?

Midodrine and Mestinon primarily help with POTS or Orthostatic Intolerance and it can occur with autoimmune problems like autoimmune neuropathy, myasthenia gravis, GBS or others which could be responsive to IVIG. I mean you even had indications that you may have an autoimmune problem and as you surely now many of these illnesses can also include brain fog and symptom flare ups due to exhaustion.

Before the onset of POTS you seemed to be close to healthy, as having a Bell-Score of 80-90 and having ME for me seems almost impossible, at least per ICC, as there it says: "for a diagnosis of ME, symptom severity must result in a significant reduction of a patient’s premorbid activity level". With Bell 80-90 you have some symptoms but hardly any reduction in your capacity or functioning.

Apart from this question I always find it a bit difficult if someone has clear and diagnosed comorbidities, in your case possibly some kind of autoimmune neuropathy, and takes on a treatment which even has some (low grade) evidence for those comorbidities. Even given you have ME and IVIG really worked, it's basically impossible to say if IVIG touched anything that has to do with ME or simply helps with this other illness and therefore you feel better overall.

So even in that case my summary and takeaway from your anecdote wouldn't "positive anecdote for IVIG in ME" but "look for comorbidities and treat them".
 
the trial for post-Covid POTS failed, which does not bode well for what I'm hoping is the case – ME/POTS/LC are autoimmune disorders and can be effectively treated with IVIg and anti-FcRn's – but let's ignore that for the moment...maybe it was poor trial design).
Are you thinking of this trial?

Why would we ignore it? In your opinion, what was wrong with the trial design?
 
Hi @smitihsj,

To be honest, there does not sound to be much to make one think there is any cause and effect relation in your story. As indicated on another thread, 50% of people taking a sham treatment will get better, and if you report that post-hoc it will be even higher because you will report it on an up!

One of the problems for IVIg at least in Europe is that it is a human product with limited supply. People who absolutely need IVIg because of genetic immunodeficiency have had problems getting supplies and health systems have had to spend a lot of public money ensuring those supplies. We need trials.
Heh. Well it’s another anecdote, but who is going to push for a trial?
 
Vyvgart therefore substitutes for IVIg as a treatment for myasthenia gravis and CIDP, and presumably would for other autoimmune diseases that are treatable with IVIg as well

I am afraid that things are a lot more complicated than that. (You may not be aware but I started the whole business of using biologic agents to deplete antibodies in the 1990s- with lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. IVIg does not deplete autoantibodies. We don't really know how it works, if ever does much beyond thrombocytopenia.)

I got drawn in to studying ME/CFS by Fluge and Mella's work but I have to say that 10 years later I am pretty sure that autoantibodies are not what we are looking for. Wenow have several large scale screening studies that are essentially negative. The few positive findings claimed are not reproduced.
 
I hope this question doesn't come across rude, but are you absolutely sure that you had ME and not "just" POTS due to another illness?

Midodrine and Mestinon primarily help with POTS or Orthostatic Intolerance and it can occur with autoimmune problems like autoimmune neuropathy, myasthenia gravis, GBS or others which could be responsive to IVIG. I mean you even had indications that you may have an autoimmune problem and as you surely now many of these illnesses can also include brain fog and symptom flare ups due to exhaustion.

Before the onset of POTS you seemed to be close to healthy, as having a Bell-Score of 80-90 and having ME for me seems almost impossible, at least per ICC, as there it says: "for a diagnosis of ME, symptom severity must result in a significant reduction of a patient’s premorbid activity level". With Bell 80-90 you have some symptoms but hardly any reduction in your capacity or functioning.

Apart from this question I always find it a bit difficult if someone has clear and diagnosed comorbidities, in your case possibly some kind of autoimmune neuropathy, and takes on a treatment which even has some (low grade) evidence for those comorbidities. Even given you have ME and IVIG really worked, it's basically impossible to say if IVIG touched anything that has to do with ME or simply helps with this other illness and therefore you feel better overall.

So even in that case my summary and takeaway from your anecdote wouldn't "positive anecdote for IVIG in ME" but "look for comorbidities and treat them".
I had no perception of dysautonomia or objective heart rate increase upon standing (I measured once) from 2017 (when I got the virus and intense fatigue) until 2021 (when I started perceiving dysautonomia and got tachycardia upon standing). Just intense, intense fatigue and something I now recognize as PEM (more intense fatigue after more intense exertion) following a virus, and a bit of tingling in my arms (but no pain or the other things that are more often associated with SFN). I saw a rheumatologist and they said nothing was wrong with me, and I couldn't find any better-understood autoimmune disease that fit – so it was certainly wasn't one of those.

So I definitely didn't have POTS. I think I had ME, I experienced PEM, it immediately followed a virus. But there is no diagnostic test for ME, so I don't see how anybody could say with confidence what they have.

As for a Bell 80 or 90 not counting as ME – I've never heard that before. Most disorders have a range of severity. ME is stigmatized by doctors and has no remotely validated diagnostic test, so a lot of times people with mild ME aren't super well represented. But I had something, and nobody else could ever tell me anything else that fit. Certainly POTS wasn't remotely diagnosable from 2017-2021. Dr. Susan Levine diagnosed me with ME (and then added POTS to it once I developed that, but not before). The other doctors didn't, but they were specialists in either POTS (I saw them after I got POTS, not before) or something like SFN, and generally felt that ME wasn't a useful diagnosis.

As for comorbidities – a huge share of people with ME have comorbidities. I got pretty close to a lot of patients and I don't think I ever met anybody who couldn't be diagnosed with any of the common comorbidities. ME isn't a well defined disorder, and the common comorbidities (SFN, POTS, etc.) aren't that much better defined. Many researchers have theorized that ME is "actually" one of these comorbidities. The fact that I had PEM and intense fatigue for years before getting POTS makes me confident that if ME is a thing, I had it. I actually think I had more "pure" ME during that 2017-2021 than most other patients I've come across (probably just because I was pretty mild; it's when people get more severe that they start checking every box for every disorder, in my experience).

As for Mestinon "primarily" helping POTS – Mestinon isn't on-label for POTS, and Dr. David Systrom prescribes it for people with ME (which he seems to think is a variant of SFN as I recall?), whether or not they have POTS.

One way to look at all this category confusion is that a lot of people who identify as having ME don't "really" have ME, they have something else. Another way to look at it is that the lines we've drawn between these things are really just different symptomatic presentations of the same underlying pathology. Given that we have essentially no biological understanding of what ME is, comorbidities are rampant, and there's a ton of symptom overlap between the diagnoses, I think the latter is true.
 
Well it’s another anecdote, but who is going to push for a trial?

The physicians using these agents are morally obliged to do a trial if they are going to continue exposing people to them. Trials are not that difficult to do and at least in some countries a physicians's income would cover the costs. I paid for my first rituximab trial out of my own pocket. There are no excuses here.
 
The physicians using these agents are morally obliged to do a trial if they are going to continue exposing people to them. Trials are not that difficult to do and at least in some countries a physicians's income would cover the costs. I paid for my first rituximab trial out of my own pocket. There are no excuses here.
The income of a physician in the US who treats ME/CFS patients (the average US doctor makes $275k a year, and ME specialists are probably not paid much more than average, if that, given that the disease is stigmatized, insurance-covered treatments are few and far between, and it is therefore not a very prestigious or profitable specialty for a hospital group) will not even cover a single year of IVIg in the US at an autoimmune dose (last I checked, my insurer pays about $750k for it), nevermind a phase 2 trial. A phase 1 trial has already been done to prove safety. A phase 2 trial for IVIg for ME would under no circumstance cost less than eight figures (the average NIH-funded trial is in the low eight figures, and IVIg is far more expensive and takes way longer to administer than the average treatment). The cost would almost certainly exceed the total lifetime earnings of the median US physician.
 
The income of a physician in the US who treats ME/CFS patients (let's say $250-400k a year on average, before taxes) will not even cover a single year of IVIg in the US at an autoimmune dose (last I checked, my insurer pays about $750k for it), nevermind a phase 2 trial. A phase 1 trial has already been done to prove safety. I believe a phase 2 trial would cost nine figures, and under no circumstance less than eight figures.

Which I guess highlights how unethical it is to use a treatments that is so badly needed by the immunodeficient and costs health care systems so much.

The type of physician who prescribes IVIg often seems to recruit patients to trials with the patient paying, so that is one way to do things. When I was in to dose ranging studies of rituximab I allowed some patients to pay and since the were very rich I did not see an ethical problem when there was no other way for me to source drug for them.
 
Which I guess highlights how unethical it is to use a treatments that is so badly needed by the immunodeficient and costs health care systems so much.

The type of physician who prescribes IVIg often seems to recruit patients to trials with the patient paying, so that is one way to do things. When I was in to dose ranging studies of rituximab I allowed some patients to pay and since the were very rich I did not see an ethical problem when there was no other way for me to source drug for them.
You said doctors can afford to pay for trials of IVIg, and are unethical in not doing so. Then when I corrected you, you pivoted to calling me unethical because I receive a treatment that two doctors have prescribed me and my insurer has agreed to pay for because it's an expensive treatment and, like every treatment in this field, the evidence base is weak. This is a shitty disease and there are no good options. I don't see how it's productive to attack the ethics of patients trying the best they can to have a life worth living. I tried everything I could, more things than 99% of patients. This is the one that I found that seemed to help.
 
Why should we ignore the trials that don’t fit an hypothesis when discussing that hypothesis?
You are misunderstanding what I meant by "but let's ignore that for the moment." I meant that it is a hole in my hypothesis. I was just saying that if IVIg works for ME, then Vyvgart might as well, and then conceding that the failure of the Vyvgart phase 2 for post-Covid POTS speaks against my argument to some extent.
 
Then when I corrected you, you pivoted to calling me unethical

No I did not. I said that the physicians often recruit paying patients. There is nothing unethical about that, either for the phsyician or rhte patient. As I indicated, I have done the same myself.

I realise it is a shitty disease but people with the disease need to make sure their physicians are behaving ethically if they want progress. Making excuses for these physicians is something I have no time for. We would be twenty years further ahead with research if they had done what I did in 1998.
 
We would be twenty years further ahead with research if they had done what I did in 1998.

OK, but this is a model of the gentleman-scientist-physician, which I’m not really sure exists in the U.S. Obviously there are plenty of physicians who conduct research trials on contract for pharmaceutical companies.

But I’m not so sure about the lone-wolf model of the gentleman-scientist-physician. I haven’t seen it. Most of the physicians here would say they are too busy or they lack the intellectual rigor or the intellectual curiosity to carry out a study (again outside of being contracted by pharma).
 
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