Lightning Process study in Norway - Given Ethics Approval February 2022

Is there a recording of this that youtube could automatically transcribe and translate?

 

Thanks. Does facebook do things like transcriptions and translations? If not, could it be worth asking them to upload on youtube? If they have the file lying around that could be super easy for them.

 

Here's the clip:



I know almost nothing about facebook but couldn't see many options there.

 

I haven't been following this in detail but surely one of the biggest red flags is that the LP practitioners tell people that for it to work you must tell people that you're cured.

 

And that their evidence that it works is... people saying it works. A tiny %. Most of whom now work as, I guess they call them coaches? Defining "working" as saying that it works, of course, since how else are you going to assess such major improvements? If they say so, what more do you want, people?!

How do we know that Theranos' technology works? Why if we can't take Holmes saying so and some comments from some unnamed engineers working for the company, what, we can't just take people at their words?

And, really, let me rage a bit, but if we can't trust the good executives at VW telling us that their diesel engines are not only more efficient but also have good emissions quality, who can we even trust anymore? Surely we can't start doubting the good folks at tobacco companies who were paid to say that their product was smooth as silk coming down smokers' throats? You can tell it's healthy by how much lung mucus people are cough hacking.

Honestly on the medium term this will backfire, but it will be very stupid for a while. The reason stuff like CBT and GET were somewhat accepted is because they're so generic. LP is built out of NLP and osteopathy, which aren't considered scientific. I don't know whatever is scientific about CBT and exercise, but somehow that's accepted. Somehow.

 

Looks like the person defending the LP study in that clip (Siri Forsmo) has some prior comments on ME and Live Landmark: https://twitter.com/user/status/1548003105823854592


Not being able to speak the language limits my ability to really comment.

I wish I could speak the language and keep up as Norway seems to be really keen to try and take over from the UK on CFS dodgyness.

 

Twitter translate —

And now a number of screen shots appear from previous proposals from Siri Fosmo which show that she has very low thoughts about ME patients, and has also previously portrayed the patient group in a negative way. And that she obviously has a personal knowledge of just the person behind this study. Quite typical #MEpasienterfaring in other words. Can it end soon?

Siri Forsmo is a member of NEM and has approved the LP study. The statement from 2012 weakens confidence in her integrity.

 

This whole debacle seems to bring attention to LP from people who aren't involved in the issue. I've been seeing comments over the last few days from people saying this all looks corrupt and medical authorities are really screwing the pooch here, especially with public money going to this and how it's inexplicably pushed from the top by medical authorities, who are clearly abusing their authority with this. Potent Streisand effect. And seeing the obvious bad faith from people involved like the comment above this one, really doesn't make anyone involved look good. They all seem to be bullies and in an alternative universe where medicine is accountable, a lot of people would lose their job and career over this, if not prosecuted.

Mostly there seems to be serious issues with how medical authorities are working around issues with alternative medicine. I can't read everything, only comments, but it flows from the decision of the alternative medicine body a few years ago labelling LP as alternative medicine, how it would prevent such a project from being considered legitimate, and it appears that the bureaucratic sleight-of-hands is being done by classifying LP as not medical, I think it's being categorized as psychoeducation, which is not really a thing, even though it's loosely being applied as a medical treatment to a medical condition. This really all looks incredibly corrupt and abuse of power.

Especially given the bizarre framing from some of the people behind this, how they say it's important to do research and understand the causes and treatments of the condition. Which makes no sense at all, especially given the insistence that it's not a medical treatment, alternative or not, but it's still relevant medical research, or whatever. It really all looks rotten in, uh, Norway, I guess, for a change.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549376015838978049


There's a lot more to it but I can only read glimpses with most of the information being in scans of documents.

 

I have a feeling that this LP study could go badly due to recruitment process. If I understood right the patients will be referred by the government agency responsible for welfare payments to sick people. These patients might feel like they have no choice but go along with the process, including the step where participants are asked if they are truly motivated, which normally should ensure that nobody who openly expresses doubts would be recruited. I suspect these kind of believers are not very common and that means the majority of the study participants could end up being people who felt like they're forced to attend and pretend everything is OK. The pretense could stop very quickly once the participants feel they've done what was expected, and then they might turn against the study. Maybe at followup the outcomes will be especially poor.

The people involved are setting themselves up for a PR disaster.

 

Worse than I imagined.

 

I've tried to get, via google, a translation of that document. It's probably a bit rough, but here it is:

 

So, attempting to prevent LP from being seen, by some vested interests, as a 'health related treatment'...is a freedom of speech issue? Where only the people making money out of it, causing harm to patients, have the right to freedom of speech?

 

I wonder how hard they have tried to understand the complexities of the word "knowledge", and its usage. Not very, by the look of it.

 

Trial By Error: Mom Speaks Out About NHS “Abuse” of Daughter; Norway Approves Lightning Process Study

"I have written frequently about the Lightning Process, most recently about a proposed clinical trial in Norway. On July 13th, NEM, the Norwegian research ethics authority, announced that it has approved the trial, even though the proposal is riddled with methodological problems."

https://www.virology.ws/2022/07/20/...hter-norway-approves-lightning-process-study/

 

I've seen a lot written about this recently and although I'm tempted to dismiss it as there being a missing detail somewhere, it wouldn't be especially surprising. It's one of those things where if true it should lead to immediate action, and since it's not happening it seems reasonable to think it's a misunderstanding, but that would only apply to normal circumstances, it's essentially standard for BPS quackery to use shady tactics like this.

The gist of what I understand is that the PhD position Landmark is using to market her product (let's be honest here about what it is) is only open to people who meet specific conditions for employment in the public sector, which she did not meet. A position was created for her, despite that position not being her job, and it didn't go back far enough anyway. If accurate, it's as clear-cut as the zero-tolerance policy that several of Crawley's papers violated, but as we know in BPSland, rules are just words written for other people, especially when the people who enforce the rules want it to happen.

It wouldn't even be the most corrupt aspect of all this, and it would be pretty black-and-white violation of the terms, but so are many other violations happening around this in general that it's just one more to the pile. This seems to be about working around safeguards that exist explicitly to guard against pseudoscience, and how RN are trying to redefine their program as not alternative medicine, on grounds of not being medical, it's psychological education, or whatever.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549339559024103431


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