PACE trial TSC and TMG minutes released

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by JohnTheJack, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd call it a smoking gun, unless otherwise proven.

    Which is precisely why compliance measures such as actigraphy are needed.

    Without them the results are ambiguous.
     
  2. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But we don't really know how they were even using actigraphy at baseline. Was there anything in the protocol about that?
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Don't recall anything in the protocol at all about actigraphy. They had decided very early on to dump it as an outcome measure, possibly after early behind-the-scenes knowledge of the actigraphy results from the 3 studies eventually collated and reported by Wiborg.
     
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  4. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But if some of that "smallest difference they could possibly report as statistically significant" was due to these patients they are still affecting the trial outcome. And the fact they included people with a different illness and palmed them off as ME, and paid GP to get these patients is important to show.
     
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  5. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In Feb 2007 they are still discussing the actigraphy analysis strategy. At this point, the protocol had already been submitted for publication.
     
  6. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    But PACE did say in their protocol that they would use a submaximal 'self-paced step test' (search the protocol for ref #43, which is this Petrella thing):

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11380757
     
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  7. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ah - OK. I'm making assumptions again. (naughty naughty) I'll see if I can get hold of this.
     
  8. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even understand the enormity of this decision. For them the subjective reports are the proof they are right and the incongruity of actigraphy results are just seen as an anomaly, that they (more or less consciously) do not want to explore, to avoid facing a crude truth.

    The more I read on this thread, the more shocked I am. With the number of flaws yet uncovered, I wouldn't have thought there was still so much to discover.

    ETA: thanks to everyone who has dug into this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
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  9. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My hairs went up on reading the actigraphy stuff. Not only were they aware of the null results for actigraphy when they dropped it as a PACE outcome, but they were explicitly citing this data as part of their reason for dropping it. Wow.

    I think it's important to avoid being too critical about some of the smaller things turning up in these minutes, but this seems like a big find to me.

    Maybe now would be a good time to draw attention to some old @Tom Kindlon comments on the PACE trial protocol? He got in there with pre-specified criticisms!: https://bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2377-7-6/comments

    Specifically:

    Would it not be preferable if objective outcome measures were used?
    23 May 2007

    Another example as to why objective measures would be useful
    30 August 2007

    CFS intervention studies - lessons can be learned from a previous review
    30 August 2007

    If CBT for CFS is "to help patients improve activity levels and quality of life", would not actometers be useful for measuring outcomes?
    13 November 2007

    The relevant part of White's response:

    Response to comments on “Protocol for the PACE trial”
    28 July 2008

    ...

    "Objective outcome measures

    We have used several objective outcome measures; the six minute walking test [1], a test of physical fitness [2], as well as occupational and health economic outcomes [3]. Although we originally planned to use actigraphy as an outcome measure, as well as a baseline measure, we decided that a test that required participants to wear an actometer around their ankle for a week was too great a burden at the end of the trial. We will however test baseline actigraphy as a moderator of outcome. No biological measures were sufficiently well established to justify their use as outcomes in the trial."

    Then more from Kindlon:

    The dropping of actometers as an outcome measure and other points relating to the outcome measures being used
    22 October 2008

    Further evidence showing why objective measures are preferable in CFS trials particularly where cognitions could be changed following the intervention
    6 March 2009

    Discrepancies between momentary fatigue and recalled fatigue can exist
    1 July 2009

    New paper lists 3 CFS studies where there was no improvement in the actometer readings but an improvement was reported in subjective outcome measures
    12 May 2010
     
  10. Jan

    Jan Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Can you imagine any other scientific study including patients with a different disease? Study MS and throw in some RA patients, study cancer and throw in some with dibetes to make the numbers up? This is horrifying and was not even declared. It really shows the utter contempt with which they hold pwme.

    They refuse to even attempt to understand the disease, I suppose they think it doesn't matter as pwme and pwfm are all the same as both 'conditions' are all in the mind. But rather telling they didn't state the trial was studying both conditions.

    Actigraphy won't indicate improvement, so we'd better drop that! My jaw is aching is has dropped so many times hearing all this.
     
  11. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Also - it's a bit odd to suggest that actometers aren't suitable outcome measures because patients' activity is already so high at baseline, when CBT and GET both aim to improve activity levels.

    Chalder and Wessely have said:

    "At the heart of CBT is a behavioural approach to the impairment of activity that is part of the definition of CFS."
    http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(99)80332-5/pdf
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  12. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Presumably just too much on top of all those marathons they were now running.
    Not quite what it says in the minutes.
     
  13. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    An instrument deliberately designed to be as unobtrusive as possible, weighing less than 50g (1.75oz), is claimed to be too much of a burden.

    Just to put that in perspective, my short sleeved summer shirt comes in at 272g (9.5oz), more than 5 times the weight of the actometer.

    Too much of a burden, my arse. :mad:

    Add in

    1. their explicit acknowledgement of the null results on previous studies using actometers, so they knew activity levels were not increasing (for CBT at least),

    2. the statement from Wessely and Chalder that increase in activity levels "must ultimately be the aim of any treatment", and

    3. the quote from Esther12 above,

    and the case for scientific fraud is looking strong.

    No wonder they didn't want these minutes to be released.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  14. Robert 1973

    Robert 1973 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks for unearthing this actigraphy stuff @Lucibee.

    A smoking gun indeed, @Sean.

    I'm alarmed by their use of the word "useful". This hints at motivation. What was the purpose of the trial? To test whether CBT/GET are effective or to try to prove that they are? To suggest that an objective measure of activity which is likely to yield a null result is not "useful" is a shocking admission.

    Rough translation of minutes on actigraphy:

    Actigraphy is to be used at baseline as it's a good way of assessing how unwell someone is.
    Actigraphy is not to be used as an outcome measure as it is a good way of assessing how unwell someone is (and this is not something we are interested in, unless it supports our hypothesis).

    Hard to know whether it is incompetence or a deliberate attempt to design a trial that will produce the result they want. Probably both.


    This is starting to feel quite exciting. I’m getting a sense of how Bernstein and Woodward must have felt.
     
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  15. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I suspect the minutes of the Analysis Strategy Group will have more detail on the "issues" they had with actigraphy.
     
  16. Indigophoton

    Indigophoton Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think you're right.

    This just gets weirder and weirder. The quote (linked below) shows that they actually knew that they would not be improving physical activity levels, only perceptions of fatigue, but apparently that didn't matter.

    View attachment 2410
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  17. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I've put together a PDF with all the Actigraphy mentions in the minutes.
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    So in 2005 they said they would discuss and decide later whether to do actigraphy at 12 month follow up as an outcome measure.

    As far as I can see the only discussion of Actigraphy included in @Lucibee's summary after that is whether they needed to buy more equipment, and how to analyse the data. No further mention of any discussion, let alone decision with reasons, on whether to use actigraphy as an outcome measure.

    What are we missing here?

    All we've been told is the totally crap excuse that it was considered too burdensome for patients.
     
  19. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Many thanks @Lucibee, I will put that in my 'notebook'.
     
  20. JohnTheJack

    JohnTheJack Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for those replies Lucy.

    This was their reason given in 'Response to comments on "Protocol for the PACE trial"' 28/07/2008.

    Although we originally planned to use actigraphy as an outcome measure, as well as a baseline measure, we decided that a test that required participants to wear an actometer around their ankle for a week was too great a burden at the end of the trial. We will however test baseline actigraphy as a moderator of outcome.
     
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