Royal College of Psychiatrists: Philosophy SIG Winter Conference 2026 - The mind-body problem revisited: Could physics help? - 7th Dec 2026

Whether consciousness can be usefully explained with higher-level effects is surely an open question but at the moment invoking any quantum here just seems like total speculation?
I disagree. If higher level means a system with multiple events relating in sequence, which is the popular model, as tononni admits, it cannot work, because sequences of events cannot be individual events and therefore cannot be conscious experiences.
If you assume conscious experiences must be individual events, why can't the last event in a sequence be the conscious thing?

I like to think that the human species flatters itself with discussions about their exceptional experiences of consciousness and free will.
 
AI medicine can't happen soon enough. At this point every day of delay is just a combination of embarrassment and immiseration. They haven't even arrived at the starting line yet, it's so damn cringe-worthy seeing how these people work and thing. They are the only example of experts where this is the case. Normally experts doing their work is impressive to look at. Not here, it's just... ugh. It's nothing. They got nothing at all, just empty, mindless nonsense.
 
If it ever happens: What are some recommended things to read that wouldn’t send me on a wild goose chase of misconceptions?

What i have found most rewarding are the essays by Leibniz in Woolhouse and Francks translated collection (Leibniz: Philosophical Works). I find it fascinating to see how someone can get so far in understanding our relation to world just by rational analysis. The modern literature is mostly very confused and in comparison half thought through (such as Eddington's book on the nature of reality).
 
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If you assume conscious experiences must be individual events, why can't the last event in a sequence be the conscious thing?

But yes, that is of course right; it must be. And then the domain of the last event is the indivisible physical domain of interest - NOT the domain of the whole sequential system. it is not the brain that is conscious. That would be a bit like saying that the United States receives Christmas cards. In reality people in the uS receive Christmas cards from other people in the US. Consciousness is a property of events in which one part of the brain is being informed by another. And since each nerve cell is informationally separate it must be a property of an individual nerve cell. That is the bit that people find so uncomfortable but it is inescapable.
I like to think that the human species flatters itself with discussions about their exceptional experiences of consciousness and free will.

Absolutely. My claim is that man differs from other animals merely in his more sophisticated misunderstanding of his own nature. If conscious experiences are properties of individual nerve cells then quite simple organisms may have just as complicated experiences and thoughts as us.
 
First, thank you for that fascinating answer. It took me a while to go through it and I learned a lot by it, although I can't claim I fully understood it.

As Leibniz deduced, it is even pretty meaningless to suggest they are chunked. They are individual events that do not merge with similar events insomeone sitting next to you on the sofa.
I am slightly suspicious of starting with what seems to me a mostly metaphysical premise.

While it seems intuitively right that my experience does not merge with someone else's, I am not sure this is I impossible per se. Or—more realistically—that my own experiences from a moment ago doesn't merge (to some degree) with my experience from now. Naively, given the messy nature of our brains, I would find this even much more likely than a clean "quantization" of experience.

Quantum theory provides us with a basis for dynamic individuals, very much as Leibniz foresaw.
If the computational impact of that event in a brain can be covered with classical theory there is no contradiction or loss of the need for quantisation for individualisation.
Quantization here refers to a theory of "I divisible, discrete state". QM provides us with this. But classical physics allows building systems of discrete, indivisible state as well. So I see no necessary argument to invoke QM just yet.

I disagree. If higher level means a system with multiple events relating in sequence, which is the popular model, as tononni admits, it cannot work, because sequences of events cannot be individual events and therefore cannot be conscious experiences.
I was using the term without giving much thought. I was referring to a classical description, which may or may not feature I divisible states.

You have an infinite sequential regress, as the philosopher James Blackmon neatly pointed out. If it just means a larger scale indivisible and therefore quantisable action pattern then we are back to quantum. It is not an open question. Leibniz explained precisely why it isn't 300 years ago.
And equally, looking for quantisable indivisible events is not speculative. It is the only thing that makes any sense. You cannot include two events in one event, especially if they relate by one being before the other (and nobody has proposed any other relation that could work).
But are they, really? When I see an apple and smell an apple that is one experience. But it surely must involve different neurons for smelling and seeing. Why shouldn't it be separatable? Why shouldn't smelling itself be seperatable into "smelling but a bit less intense"?

In summary, I really struggle with the premise of indivisibility. But even assuming indivisibility, I see no necessary argument for invoking QM. I also currently see no argument against it, though.

Fascinating topic.
 
And since each nerve cell is informationally separate it must be a property of an individual nerve cell. That is the bit that people find so uncomfortable but it is inescapable.
Ah, wish I had read this before writing my answer! So you think consciousness cannot be an emergent property of a complex system?

Or could it be something that is integrated over time?

Sorry, I am sure these questions must be discussed in the literature to no end.
 
I am slightly suspicious of starting with what seems to me a mostly metaphysical premise.

But surely you should not be. Leibniz defined metaphysics, or 'first' philosophy, as the task of making clear what you want to mean by words like time, space, thing, or cause before you try building them into a 'physics'. Surely that is exactly what you have to do first.

William James defined it as 'nothing but an unusually obstinate effort to think clearly'. In my experience metaphysics is only used to mean untestable or woo-woo by people who don't make that effort!

While it seems intuitively right that my experience does not merge with someone else's, I am not sure this is I impossible per se.

Yes, it is. It goes back to Aristotle and identity. You cannot change an entity because then it is a different entity. If your experience merged with someone else's it would no longer by your experience. It would have to be the experience of some combined 'me'. Leibniz realised that his all becomes self-contradictory. The very existence of a me was moot in 1676 and Leibniz worked out that Spinoza's 'me-less' cosmos was contradicted by one phenomenon - the distinctness of 'points of view'. A separate subject can only be defined as such in terms of a separate point of view. Merged points of view are a contradiction. They are just new points of view.

Or—more realistically—that my own experiences from a moment ago doesn't merge (to some degree) with my experience from now. Naively, given the messy nature of our brains, I would find this even much more likely than a clean "quantization" of experience.

Agreed. This is the one thing Leibniz never quite handles in a way that convinces. He wants temporal continuity but also temporal individuation of events. Bertrand Russell identified this problem and the Leibniz scholar Richard Arthur and I have spent happy times discussing how you resolve it and writing papers and books on that. This is a very complicated area but my current conclusion is that post-1980 QFT provides an elegant resolution that fits perfectly within the fundamental epistemic structure that quantum theory provides us with. In essence Bose modes associated with ordered condensed matter allow both for a string of events, involving shifts in the energy content quantum number, and an enduring indivisible, being the enduring ordered structure that the mode occupies.

So continuity across events of an indivisible identity probably can occur in quantum theory, even if Feynman tells us not to make that mistake for things like electrons. We still have a very robust requirement of dynamic indivisibles.

But classical physics allows building systems of discrete, indivisible state as well.
Can you give an example? My understanding is that Leibniz's 'weakness' in popularity terms at least was to focus too much on rigour. Newton just wrote equations that worked for arbitrarily divisible chunkings. Even he hated his theory of gravity and was frustrated by metaphysical implications of his optics that he could not explain, but his equations were useful.

How can a composite dynamic system have an indivisible state? Newton shows that you can cheat and treat a planet as a centre of gravity, but only accurately if you are far enough away from it. 'Systems' as now conceived are by definitions divisible into the dynamic components that form the system.
When I see an apple and smell an apple that is one experience. But it surely must involve different neurons for smelling and seeing. Why shouldn't it be separatable? Why shouldn't smelling itself be seperatable into "smelling but a bit less intense"?

Yes, different neurons mediate the input and collation of different sensory modlaities, but these are events prior to the experience. There is no 'honey smell' or 'red', of the sort we report, associated with these earlier neural events or the nose or retina. We may see 'red' simply because an area of the visual field has slightly less blue and green input. Some nerves somewhere in visual cortex infer that this area is 'redder' and tell some other nerves about this. 'Our' experience must belong to the nerves being told that it is redder.

And we know that the neural code does not work like pixels. It works like sentences such as x is red, x is round, x is left of y, y is the same as x but smaller, x is one of five, all five are the same colour. Neurons pass signals like this to each other and receiving neurons experience the totality of their meaning. Nobody has any understanding of the rules or 'reasons' for this but both Descartes and Leibniz saw clearly the need to propose this extra 'intrinsic interpreter' property. Domains of quantised fields and/or their excitations must have an intrinsic ability to support meaning.
 
Ah, wish I had read this before writing my answer! So you think consciousness cannot be an emergent property of a complex system?

The philosophers have been batting on about emergent properties for decades now and completely missing the point that QFT provides us with emergent entities like crystals and violins. And these bring new quantised entities that are completely unpredictable from their aggregated components. Phonons were only identified because of the empirical finding that the free energy (real free energy) of melting of ice was wrong without postulating some new energy-carrying unit.

`emergent properties of complex systems by dint of event sequence are useless for providing points of view. Each event has its different input point of view.
 
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The moderators may think all this is off topic but maybe not. The thread is about some psychiatrists trying to understand the mind-body problem and how it relates to brain illnesses. I actually think it is a useful thing to try and do but it needs to be done with scientific rigour rather than New Age drivel.
 
But surely you should not be. Leibniz defined metaphysics, or 'first' philosophy, as the task of making clear what you want to mean by words like time, space, thing, or cause before you try building them into a 'physics'. Surely that is exactly what you have to do first.
I agree.
What made me suspicious, is that all too often metaphysical arguments seem completely detached from reality. But then, those were probably bad metaphysical arguments to begin with! So I should evaluate the argument based on its merit, not on its type.

Yes, it is. It goes back to Aristotle and identity. You cannot change an entity because then it is a different entity. If your experience merged with someone else's it would no longer by your experience.
Makes sense. Agree'd.
Can you give an example? My understanding is that Leibniz's 'weakness' in popularity terms at least was to focus too much on rigour. Newton just wrote equations that worked for arbitrarily divisible chunkings. Even he hated his theory of gravity and was frustrated by metaphysical implications of his optics that he could not explain, but his equations were useful.

How can a composite dynamic system have an indivisible state? Newton shows that you can cheat and treat a planet as a centre of gravity, but only accurately if you are far enough away from it. 'Systems' as now conceived are by definitions divisible into the dynamic components that form the system.
True. I think I was overclaiming with the indivisible part. What I was thinking of were electrical circuits. A simple circuit may be described with on/off which is superficially an indivisible state. But of course that circuit is made up of particles and those particles are interacting...

I think the point I wanted to make is, that even if an experience is indivisible, I see not why it can't be sufficiently described by a "higher-level" descriptor, like an electrical circuit. Why does it need to go all the way down?

Some nerves somewhere in visual cortex infer that this area is 'redder' and tell some other nerves about this. 'Our' experience must belong to the nerves being told that it is redder.
I see, so assuming experiences are indivisible and nerve cells are informationally separate, this leads us to a single neuron.
If it was two neurons, experiencing two thing simultaneously (color and smell), then it would be divisible, thus not "one" experience?

I'm still not sold on this indivisibity, but I'll think I'll have to leave this for now and let it grow a bit on me.

Domains of quantised fields and/or their excitations must have an intrinsic ability to support meaning.
Why can't meaning emerge from relations of things to each other on a structural or logical level? Why does it have to be intrinsic to quantum fields, why not electricomagnetic fields?
 
I see not why it can't be sufficiently described by a "higher-level" descriptor, like an electrical circuit.

I think the basic mistake is to talk physics in terms of 'states'. Feynman slips in to this, following von Neumann. But what is 'a state'? Maybe the pattern of potentials in a spacetime field domain? Why that domain? The key mistake is to talk in terms of things existing rather than happening. Again, Leibniz gets this right in 1694 with his Reflections on the Advancement of the True Metaphysics and Particularly on the Nature of Substance Explained by Force. (He uses force to mean what might now be called action.) Reality boils down to events, happenings, or causal connections. What 'things' connect we will never know, other than in terms of their abilities to connect in happenings. The paradigmatic happening in physics is the observation that tests the theory - ultimately, an experience, although this is masked by calibrators like rulers and clocks.

Everything makes sense if we define the relevant domain in terms of its involvement in an event. William James again: nothing exists as a pattern except in that it is a pattern for something that it informs. QFT gives us exactly what we want domains of field potentials inform the events that are field excitations ('quanta'). A 'state' has no intrinsic existence because it is not a state for something.

Electrical circuits are interesting in that they involve electron modes that exist as indivisible events across conductors and semiconductors but there is no one 'circuit event' in which a rich pattern informs an event mode.
 
If it was two neurons, experiencing two thing simultaneously (color and smell), then it would be divisible, thus not "one" experience?

It will be two separate events. Those events share no common causal step or informational input. How could they be one event of experience? If you postulate that the whole of physics collapses like a house of cards. They are as unlinked as are events in the brains of a mother holding her baby with the left side of his brain closer to the left side of her brain than the right side of her brain. This is the 'phenomenal binding problem' that so much impossible nonsense has been written about.

Why can't meaning emerge from relations of things to each other on a structural or logical level? Why does it have to be intrinsic to quantum fields, why not electricomagnetic fields?

Because nothing in our world has ever worked like that, not just in formal physics but in our entire experience. Information always has a causal mediation. If we lose that we just have magic.

The electromagnetic field is a quantum field. The EM field is one of the basic QFT fields, along with electron field, and corresponding fields for quarks etc. The EM and electron fields and their higher order derivative fields are the only ones of relevance to biology (unless you are Matthew Fisher). 'Quantum' does not imply anything abstruse. All physics is quantum now. Certainly all chemistry is quantum. You can still do useful approximate calculations on aggregates as classical equations but that doesn't alter the ontology.
 
Another way of looking at it is that so many people in this field have confused conscious experience with computation. Computation is defined in terms of input and output. You can define a complex sequential event system in terms of a single input-output relation. But experience is just input. Knowing is input. X will know X's input but only Y can know X's output.
 
Because nothing in our world has ever worked like that, not just in formal physics but in our entire experience. Information always has a causal mediation. If we lose that we just have magic.
But the causal mediation would be the structure and interconnections of the neurons, and the signals they pass?

In any case, 'meaning' must be an entirely subjective phenomenon.

I was not suggesting a magical world where objects pop into existence because they have been imagined.
 
I think I understood the idea of the argument, even though I am not fully convinced by all steps yet. But I believe at this point, it is up to me to do some more learning on this. It is obvious that you spent much thought on this, and I really appreciate the detailed responses and references @Jonathan Edwards
 
But the causal mediation would be the structure and interconnections of the neurons, and the signals they pass?

But experience is only ever based on an event now. Past events no longer 'exist for me' other than as feeders to the event now. As i say, if you try to base experiences on events distant in spacetime you blow apart the whole of physics. You become God.

In any case, 'meaning' must be an entirely subjective phenomenon.

Meaning is an extremely complicated topic. There are at least three different meanings of 'meaning' as explored by peole like Frege and Grice. But yes, I am talking of 'meaning to me' in the subjective sense. We have to accept the reality of that but now nothing about the rules that connect it to patterns of electromagnetic field potentials.

I was not suggesting a magical world where objects pop into existence because they have been imagined.

No, I see that. The magic comes with trying to explain the content of an experience here, now on the basis of events that have already determinately passed. There is a fundamental issue of causal locality, especially temporal locality, that goes much deeper than just light cones. All theories of cause need spacetime addresses to be testable. If you fiddle the spacetime addresses you have an untestable valueless framework that can explain anything.
 
But experience is only ever based on an event now.
But we were talking about meaning at this point, not experience?

I was referring to this:

Descartes and Leibniz saw clearly the need to propose this extra 'intrinsic interpreter' property. Domains of quantised fields and/or their excitations must have an intrinsic ability to support meaning.

I see that experience needs an event "now".
 
But we were talking about meaning at this point, not experience?

Ok but this is where it gets complicated. Frege defined two sorts of meaning: sinn and bedeutung, often translated as sense and reference. Referent meaning involves causal pathways all the way to the referent of the meaning. Dog refers to dogs by dint of us encountering dogs. But sensed meaning need not refer to anything and in cases of misrepresentation does not refer to its referent meaning. Frege's sinn is actually a hybrid because he explained it in terms of 'mode of presentation' is if tha involved preceding events like looking through a telescope. More recently experimental psychology has shown that, as Descartes realised, we have to posit sensed meaning at the point of experience. The plaintive sweetness of a minor third played on two violin strings is here and now. So, by some unknown set of rules, some pattern of electrical potentials must mean plaintive sweetness to something in a nerve cell. Or it might mean, to the cell, 'I forgot the washing' or 'the Pope is unwell'. Sensed meaning has to be experienced so it has to occur in an experience now, here.
 
How exactly does one define "conscious experience" in all of this? And if one invokes QFT, why specifically invoke neurons? What is so different between me crossing the street vs a plant?
 
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