The ELAROS NHS digital system for patient/clinician digital sharing questionnaire data, includes Yorkshire Rehab. Scale and Open-OH app

I love how lots of apps are being marketed as “tailored to you” and “access to knowledge/support” etc as ifthe internet didn’t already exist and I couldn’t just search for “local support” or “free mindfulness videos” myself. Urgh I can just feel the sales deck talking about “added value” I am officially in my grumpy old era.
 
But but but there’s an app!
Most ridiculous of all is there are already apps. Visible is quite good at this already. What does this app adds that other apps don't? Nothing.

What does the PRO"M" developed by Tyson add that other questionnaires didn't already do? Most of them are bad, and so is this one. FUNCAP is definitely better, but they ignore it entirely. In fact so far FUNCAP is just about the only one worth a damn, so this is regression.

This simply looks like people doing things for the sake of doing things, indifferent, or clueless, to any actual goals. But with the involvement of the DWP, there are obviously hidden goals here, and none of them are an improvement on any part.
 
Most ridiculous of all is there are already apps. Visible is quite good at this already. What does this app adds that other apps don't? Nothing.

This one supposedly lets clinicians see your data so they can be prepared for appointments etc. And the data will also be used to rate the clinics on their outcomes. Which will be a good incentive for the clinicians only to recommend the app to patients who are mild/improving and keep severe/worsening patients away from it (if they weren't put off already).
 
Most ridiculous of all is there are already apps. Visible is quite good at this already. What does this app adds that other apps don't? Nothing.

What does the PRO"M" developed by Tyson add that other questionnaires didn't already do? Most of them are bad, and so is this one. FUNCAP is definitely better, but they ignore it entirely. In fact so far FUNCAP is just about the only one worth a damn, so this is regression.

This simply looks like people doing things for the sake of doing things, indifferent, or clueless, to any actual goals. But with the involvement of the DWP, there are obviously hidden goals here, and none of them are an improvement on any part.
The initial messaging about the PROMS project was off, it had the feel of “something go in on behind the scenes” well now we know lots has been going on behind the scenes.
 
This one supposedly lets clinicians see your data so they can be prepared for appointments etc. And the data will also be used to rate the clinics on their outcomes. Which will be a good incentive for the clinicians only to recommend the app to patients who are mild/improving and keep severe/worsening patients away from it (if they weren't put off already).
It’s ok, they don’t treat people who are severe, they don’t get any help
 
The issue is that many patients are not well informed and while pacing up isn't as destructive as full GET it can still cause harm and deterioration. I have seen people harmed by these kinds of programs in LC groups.

Of course the progress is welcome and cannot come soon enough but as you yourself have said it is not certain when the research progress will make clinicians take ME seriously. It may not be until we have effective treatments. So in that scenario we are looking at years more where people put their trust in clinicians and are pointed towards this app and deteriorate as a result.
I'm not sure it isn't more destructive than full GET, because it uses an insidious long-term cumulation and not dropping down so that by the time people crash out it could be worse, and their mind is perhaps even less likely or able to realise and attribute it. ie at least with GET people would have seen that programme and suggested increases as external to them whereas with 'pacing up'

it is tricking people into believing

1. their baseline is different to what it is, and is something to be pushed and so they find it harder to get their own process for finding 'true north' (so not just 'what level is my body comfortable at' but 'what is that feeling that means something good vs something bad' - really disruptive stuff to mental orientation with ones own body).

Basically doing it in smaller increments but for longer is for more what leads to more permanent deteriorations that are significant. Think - it wasn't the one social event you wish you never got pushed into attending as an obligation or that one really busy week at work where you crashed out and were off ill for 3 weeks. It's that 6months of doing 40% more hours than your body could handle and the stress of making a success of that job with 60% of the resource vs your colleagues.

And not crashing to take time out and recover and linking it back, but getting gaslighted to just try doing the same again the next week 'but maybe say some mantras to yourself at lunchtime' or 'try switching tasks more, whilst doing the same work'.

So that you are distracted rearranging deckchairs on the titanic, as is your boss and OH (having been misled) instead of even noticing how you feel and/or tackling the issue and just reducing your workload or days or allowing work from home. And that endless list of useless suggestions some person might have to exhaust (there will always be even sillier ones, now no idea has to be evidenced or based in science at all - maybe you are just not breathing right, thinking right - endless courses of boxes to tick there, sitting right, ordering your work right, doing your rest breaks right) can be dragged out forever?

This is about normalising being ill and struggling and that being your lot, noone is going to listen anymore because that is the 'pot' you are in. I'm not sure it is even about anyone 'getting better' - well it can't be if it isn't legally deliberately breaching the very central tenet of the nice guideline and analysis 'not based on false beliefs/deconditioning'?

2. each time they fail they must have just done it wrong, or had bad luck, or just increased by the wrong amount. As if there is such a thing.

GET failed because the illness isn't improved by doing this, so they are making the patients responsible for making it [the already proven by GET 'impossible because it is counter-intuitive/nonsensical'] work now. Doing the impossible and fixing yourself to do more with more activity is now non-negotiable, not a research question.

Where at least GET was more honest - and I guess why that was what was trialled and not this (which is ethically worse because it isn't testable increments, they are only doing it because the testable increments harmed/failed, not because this is more ethical), because if you collapsed from GET and ended up more disabled noone was screwing with reality, someone's mind and... the legal standing of that injury ie not taking responsibility?

In a sense at least the GET thing came probably had a sense about it of people thinking some 'chronic fatigue' people snuck under the diagnosis and so were using a collateral damage approach of forcing all to do the rehab that would finish off those with ME/CFS but will some dream that 'those who didn't have it' might be improved. Which of course would be hugely immoral to make a treatment for ill people be something harmful in order to fish out those who don't have it.

Except the CBT part was really utterly immoral, and sort of focused too on being a sales pitch to those without the illness 'it is just a false belief' to enforce the real dystopia onto people and trap them.

Where this is gaslighting and so sure that anyone's baseline can be increased whatever they have, and if it doesn't they are just not trying the right thing'.

They've rolled the insidious old cfs-CBT ideology right into and under the 'pacing up' and its all about now gaslighting people if they don't increase long term they've failed - but without defining, in order that it can be ever tested, what 'therapy/mindset/actions' get anyone to that place.... because none do. It is now some end goal that is evidence merely by the belief of Pete Gladwell, BACME and those who've sucked up the bigotry put out to believe ME/CFS has an element of 'you can better yourself despite us not offering any medical treatment'....
 
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Quite literally; the PROMS project links back to a paper published in 2013 which I understand links back to another arm of the original PACE project.

I feel this is bigger than even this discussion and the info should be passed to George Monbiot.

I wonder if broken battery or something similar could put some slides together of the pathway of papers etc, with highlighting boxes around eg the conclusion (and authors, and bit in the description of it being a pace trial arm) in the 2013 paper suggesting a switch from measures used for PACE to using PROMS, the Gladwell papers that were only recently released around the times of the PROMS project but with highlight boxes round the ethics statement showing the real date etc. ?
 
It’s the whole normalisation of pacing up. That you should be able to do so, when actually you’re probably overdoing it. Whilst it’s there on the table, tantalising you that it’s a reasonable expectation, it’s an endorsement. That’s why it’s such an issue.

ME/CFS charity has to apologise over 'misinformation' in care plan

covers the pacing up used by Gladwell at the Bristol clinic and the results of this:

"In fact, the impact is plain to see. Crucially, we detailed how Gladwell has likely put this strategy into practice at his Bristol service. We wrote that:

"Patients of the clinic responded to a 2019 survey that #MEAction conducted on the state of ME services across the UK. The Bristol-based service garnered the largest number of respondents, with 76 of its patients taking part in the survey.

Two results stood out. Just 13 – 17% – of Bristol service users said that attending the clinic had helped them. Meanwhile, 27 – 35% – said they saw no change to their condition. The larger remaining 34 participants – nearly 45% – stated that their experience at the service had in fact made them worse.

Alongside this, a separate question identified the type of treatment the service prescribed patients. On this, the largest proportion of respondents – 28, or nearly 37% – said that the clinic encouraged them to:

first find a sustainable level of daily activities, and then to increase my activities week by week""
 
It’s the whole normalisation of pacing up. That you should be able to do so, when actually you’re probably overdoing it. Whilst it’s there on the table, tantalising you that it’s a reasonable expectation, it’s an endorsement. That’s why it’s such an issue.

just silencing the conversation from even happenning in the first place by suggesting it is a truism (even though the evidence had flipped to show otherwise, growing from 2015-2022), not something that should be researched - because their research they had done had been disproven they not suggest it isn't something that should be tested?
 
Most ridiculous of all is there are already apps. Visible is quite good at this already. What does this app adds that other apps don't? Nothing.

What does the PRO"M" developed by Tyson add that other questionnaires didn't already do? Most of them are bad, and so is this one. FUNCAP is definitely better, but they ignore it entirely. In fact so far FUNCAP is just about the only one worth a damn, so this is regression.

This simply looks like people doing things for the sake of doing things, indifferent, or clueless, to any actual goals. But with the involvement of the DWP, there are obviously hidden goals here, and none of them are an improvement on any part.

I think that this is a very important question and perhaps leads to a few answers/key points

if you think about apps generally using algorithms based on science

and then having to hold their own eg in the market - noone would use them (at the very least) if they found it made them more ill

so for other apps a direct relationship between who is paying for it and who is experiencing the consequences of using it. If it harms them, they will stop using it. DO we know what the main aims of those paying for it have for those they have identified to be subject to it?

vs questions about what this is intended to do and who will be using it and why - who has pushed them there etc.

but also the difference in what data is captured and then how it is used vs the algorithm to maintain control over one's own bodily data, vs if someone is collecting lots of data then doing exactly what we say doesn't work for ME/CFS and averaging it all out over anyone who signs up to give people suggestions not based on how their own body is responding etc.?
 
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I wonder if the app even has severe PwME in scope or if the mild are the target because of beliefs about getting them back to work?

The NHS should not be licensing Apps that aren't NICE compliant. What can we do constructively to stop that happening? Can S4me write a letter of concern highlighting the evidence against get/pacing up?
 
The app developers are seeking input from people connected to Long Covid, ME/CFS Fibromyalgia and POTS. .

So , it looks like they've finally clocked that these illnesses account for the a lot of working age out of work stats. I've been posting this under everything the government have been posting on X about the unsustainable welfare bill & the unacceptability of so many young people out of work. .

There are several V neglected illnesses (that predominatly affect women) stopping people working. They do not have treatments that can get people back to work and the government research funding has been tiny and totally disproportionate to disease burden.

fibromyalgia - affects 2m, 1/3-1/2 out of work
ME/CFS - 300 000, 3/4 out of work
POTS - 150 000, 1/4 out of work
“NEW“ - partly accounting for increasing sick numbers - LC - 2m, 1/4 out of work

Total 1m +.

& yet fibromyalgia & ME/CFS are some of the lowest funded illnesses, with afaik government ministers saying they were not investing anything in POTS research this decade so far. m.e has cost £60b as an untreatable illness over twenty years and over that time biomedical research investment has been average around £0.5m annually.. What’s imo nuts is that even after the dismissive rehab treatment experiment failed, long covid has largely rinsed the lingering sceptism regarding post-viral fatigue syndromes from most minds and many are bothered about young people being out of work and the costs of it, their answer is still just a freaking app.


This new phase is a continuation of the OT led “management response only” to this potentially devastating condition, except this time it’s more careful management based on belief vs previously the opposite - although if the app is talking about 30 min rests etc it is still way of. The change of emphasis is good but it's erasure to not serve the full spectrum of the community and OT led management doesn't serve the spectrum of need

Regarding Dr Charles Shepherd, his forEver main interest has seemed to be in non drug early management, if the state & BACME, after 30 years getting it wrong and harming people, have gradually moved towards a position that convalescence is right , followed by cautious “paced” return to activity, when / if , it doesn’t seem out of character or surprise me that The ME association are all over it - investing in a heath & social care dept in their charity
https://meassociation.org.uk/health-and-social-care/health-and-social-care-daily-bulletin/ & embedding themselves in nhs material & trying to carve a niche of note this way. However, it does diddly squat for the majority of the current M.E community & at the time of DHSC delivery plan, feels like selling us out on the quiet. Prevention& rehab & lifestyle can't be the main response to the M.E crisis - a serious illness, a harmed community, a disease with no treatments for core symptoms.

edited to slightly change wording, add last sentence & added a line about 30 min rests
 
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I wonder if broken battery or something similar could put some slides together of the pathway of papers etc, with highlighting boxes around eg the conclusion (and authors, and bit in the description of it being a pace trial arm) in the 2013 paper suggesting a switch from measures used for PACE to using PROMS, the Gladwell papers that were only recently released around the times of the PROMS project but with highlight boxes round the ethics statement showing the real date etc. ?

I suspect they are counting on none of us having the energy, and who would listen anyway..?!

This stuff is all out in the world and has made zero difference. They have so effectively gas lit us and poisoned the well that a) it sounds like an insane conspiracy theory and b) we can be dismissed as "those lazy chronic fatigue folks" because everybody gets tired and everyone else still has to got to work and pay taxes

Jeremy Hunt on the News Agents podcast last night saying we need to get disability benefits numbers down to pre pandemic levels without anyone questioning the inherent flaw in that proposition.
 
does diddly squat for the majority of the current M.E community & at the time of DHSC delivery plan, feels like selling us out on the quiet. Prevention& rehab & lifestyle can't be the main answer to the M.E crisis.

It feels like we are in a nightmare endless loop of fighting the same nonsense a certain person started in an endless, pointless death spiral - it never goes away, they keep saying the same thing over and over again because this time it will work, this time they will get the answer they want and we will all go "oh, you mean just stop thinking about it all wrong and try harder?" Yeah, we never thought of that :rolleyes:thank goodness you gave us an app to teach us to ...just do more?

It's like they can't see that reason it works in other illnesses is because there is a treatment before the just doing more part

I keep being asked why I don't do less and rest more by the people in my life ; because if no one stands up to this evident nonsense they will just roll right over us and it is relentless Are they are trying to wear us down?!

Plus how are MEA going backwards when AfME are focused on genetics and parliamentary champions? It's like we can't have all the charities rowing in the same direction at the same time
 
Maybe add in that Pete Gladwell was doing this in 2011: Physiotherapy journal urges gentle approach to prescribed exercise for people with ME - 19 January 2011 - The ME Association
and selling 'doing this new approach' along with Jess Bavinton (now Jess Sands of Vitality 360)

So these 'new pacing up' were before, and might have contributed to the excuses given in the Crawley et al (2013) paper of 'it must be the way some physios are doing it' etc. as it was being said before those results were published in that paper?

and the results to this were just as bad and factored in to assessing this approach doesn't help for anything - whether you label it treatment or management: ME/CFS charity has to apologise over 'misinformation' in care plan

Has that Bristol service changed what it offers to any substantial extent vs that MEAction survey in 2019? Or is it just going to be assessed now by PROMS instead?
 
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The NHS should not be licensing Apps that aren't NICE compliant.

The NHS shouldn't be licensing apps full stop, until they have trial evidence showing that they are safe and more useful (or at least as useful) to patients compared to standard care.

What can we do constructively to stop that happening?

Warn people via social media and ME/CFS and long Covid online groups?

If people don't engage with it, they're not exposed directly to the risks.
 
I'm not sure it isn't more destructive than full GET, because it uses an insidious long-term cumulation and not dropping down so that by the time people crash out it could be worse, and their mind is perhaps even less likely or able to realise and attribute it. ie at least with GET people would have seen that programme and suggested increases as external to them whereas with 'pacing up'

it is tricking people into believing

1. their baseline is different to what it is, and is something to be pushed and so they find it harder to get their own process for finding 'true north' (so not just 'what level is my body comfortable at' but 'what is that feeling that means something good vs something bad' - really disruptive stuff to mental orientation with ones own body).

Basically doing it in smaller increments but for longer is for more what leads to more permanent deteriorations that are significant. Think - it wasn't the one social event you wish you never got pushed into attending as an obligation or that one really busy week at work where you crashed out and were off ill for 3 weeks. It's that 6months of doing 40% more hours than your body could handle and the stress of making a success of that job with 60% of the resource vs your colleagues.

And not crashing to take time out and recover and linking it back, but getting gaslighted to just try doing the same again the next week 'but maybe say some mantras to yourself at lunchtime' or 'try switching tasks more, whilst doing the same work'.

So that you are distracted rearranging deckchairs on the titanic, as is your boss and OH (having been misled) instead of even noticing how you feel and/or tackling the issue and just reducing your workload or days or allowing work from home. And that endless list of useless suggestions some person might have to exhaust (there will always be even sillier ones, now no idea has to be evidenced or based in science at all - maybe you are just not breathing right, thinking right - endless courses of boxes to tick there, sitting right, ordering your work right, doing your rest breaks right) can be dragged out forever?

This is about normalising being ill and struggling and that being your lot, noone is going to listen anymore because that is the 'pot' you are in. I'm not sure it is even about anyone 'getting better' - well it can't be if it isn't legally deliberately breaching the very central tenet of the nice guideline and analysis 'not based on false beliefs/deconditioning'?

2. each time they fail they must have just done it wrong, or had bad luck, or just increased by the wrong amount. As if there is such a thing.

GET failed because the illness isn't improved by doing this, so they are making the patients responsible for making it [the already proven by GET 'impossible because it is counter-intuitive/nonsensical'] work now. Doing the impossible and fixing yourself to do more with more activity is now non-negotiable, not a research question.

Where at least GET was more honest - and I guess why that was what was trialled and not this (which is ethically worse because it isn't testable increments, they are only doing it because the testable increments harmed/failed, not because this is more ethical), because if you collapsed from GET and ended up more disabled noone was screwing with reality, someone's mind and... the legal standing of that injury ie not taking responsibility?

In a sense at least the GET thing came probably had a sense about it of people thinking some 'chronic fatigue' people snuck under the diagnosis and so were using a collateral damage approach of forcing all to do the rehab that would finish off those with ME/CFS but will some dream that 'those who didn't have it' might be improved. Which of course would be hugely immoral to make a treatment for ill people be something harmful in order to fish out those who don't have it.

Except the CBT part was really utterly immoral, and sort of focused too on being a sales pitch to those without the illness 'it is just a false belief' to enforce the real dystopia onto people and trap them.

Where this is gaslighting and so sure that anyone's baseline can be increased whatever they have, and if it doesn't they are just not trying the right thing'.

They've rolled the insidious old cfs-CBT ideology right into and under the 'pacing up' and its all about now gaslighting people if they don't increase long term they've failed - but without defining, in order that it can be ever tested, what 'therapy/mindset/actions' get anyone to that place.... because none do. It is now some end goal that is evidence merely by the belief of Pete Gladwell, BACME and those who've sucked up the bigotry put out to believe ME/CFS has an element of 'you can better yourself despite us not offering any medical treatment'....
This is exactly it, “pacing up” is a Trojan horse, of the CBT which existed alongside GET. It’s insidious because there’s no alternative - are you going to avoid treatments and live in bed forever, or do you want to get better?

Because all you have in that moment is those two choices. And society reinforces this - overtly by encouraging you, wanting you to be better, not ill, and covertly by offering no alternative, no care, no benefits, no money.

There is only a tiny voice saying rest up, this could take a while, sorry, it’s hard but this is for your long-term health.
 
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