The ME Association Clinical Assessment Toolkit (ME-CAT) and app (autonom-e)

Just curious - has anyone ever asked MEA to explain the rationale and the evidence base for "goal-setting" in ME/CFS, and ask them what treatment, precisely, is being referred to here?

I would love to see their answers to those questions. It would be most illuminating.
Agreed. I'm returning to the original release of this overall project to see the exact wording of aims out of curiosity and found this:


My hope for a project like this would be to enable symptom contingent pacing taken on board as the new status quo. I suppose if the end result turns out to be a substantial step forward from the current mishmash of some staff being more up to date and others still based on PACE mentality then it will be advantageous to have Gladwell involved to facilitate implementation.


Eta I realise this isn’t revolutionary but nevertheless reducing risk to PWME in the context of existing provision is still of some value.

Putting aside whether this, and its interpretation, is even appropriate, I always think it is useful to see whether people have managed to capture the Research Question they said they were aiming to with what they ended up doing.

I don't understand from the last surveys how the rather large ceiling and floor effects and then merging of options in the middle mean that it can capture any impact at all other than those who spontaneously recover - ie it can't/won't capture anyone getting worse because it doesn't capture severe and you can get so much more disabled in one function and still only have the one option to tick


So I guess the inclusion of where someone lies on the disability scale in this one is important: https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-m...it-me-cat-and-app-autonom-e.47303/post-686758

But how many of these questions will someone have to fill in before they get there?

On the other hand the questions on post-activity symptoms: https://www.s4me.info/threads/the-m...it-me-cat-and-app-autonom-e.47303/post-686755

especially question 15. asking about what level of activity caused the PEM
seem to miss the issue / understanding that a lot of PEM will be cumulative. ANd in fact you can't really start the cycle of recovery until you get to the point where you can't stop pushing through. eg that peak week at work is over/the weekend, but how much you have to keep overdoing it within that (and how much rest of an evening) adds to it. Vs 'an activity'.

15. Overall, in the last month what level of activity has typically triggered a worsening of symptoms when you overdo it?

Strenuous or stressful activity (for you)

Moderately demanding or stressful activity (for you)

Mildly demanding or stressful activity (for you)
 
especially question 15. asking about what level of activity caused the PEM
seem to miss the issue / understanding that a lot of PEM will be cumulative.
I agree. It's also complete nonsense, as I tried to point out to Sarah on the original version of the questionnaire. What's mildly demanding for me today may be impossibly strenous for me next week, or vice versa. Do I say anything that's bad enough to trigger PEM is by definition too strenuous for me today?
 
One big question to all of this is how any of these questions aren't just as vulnerable to those who want to just carry on with thinking the issue /fix is 'reframing' ie coercing via different methods and situational pressures/perceived threats into giving different answers about their symptoms

As noone is checking that the therapists don't errantly still think they can carry on believing the problem is 'being over-sensitive to normal bodily sensations' and thinking feeling a bit tired after a workout is illness.

Which makes this performative. Particularly if what I remember about BACME's latest 'therapy' manifesto /manual is correct, in that they just thesaurused their same attitude and beliefs. Oh and new fairytales to pretend the same tropes are based on 'evidence', whilst adding no new references as those dated after 2021 weren't even based on relevant topics

 
Just curious - has anyone ever asked MEA to explain the rationale and the evidence base for "goal-setting" in ME/CFS, and ask them what treatment, precisely, is being referred to here?

I would love to see their answers to those questions. It would be most illuminating.
I queried goal setting on Facebook in the PROMS debacle and was effectively told it was an inherent aspect of " treatment" by Sarah Tyson . It seemed so fundamental that she seemed peeved it was questioned .
With a rehab model goals seem built in .
 
I agree. It's also complete nonsense, as I tried to point out to Sarah on the original version of the questionnaire. What's mildly demanding for me today may be impossibly strenous for me next week, or vice versa. Do I say anything that's bad enough to trigger PEM is by definition too strenuous for me today?

I'd go as far as saying the risk of this is that it will remove any ability to do anything that might ever have been useful in any such clinic.


Goodness knows, other than her clinging to an irrelevant book on old people as her bible, why when the issue with everything having been harmful in their care of pwme because of ... you know not basing anything on the illness or even adapting anything to its core feature of an envelope and PEM

My example is that at least if someone did something sensible and short there is the possibility of someone using common sense and asking a new patient who has gone on the basis of wanting actual help what are the main things they have to do that could be made less exertion

And nearly everyone probably noting showering - because after all most of what any more well people might list as 'activities' would even implicitly involve showering before/after too. How can anyone be of use in a clinic if the survey doesn't really get some of the implicit 'compound tasks' involved eg with visits and public transport

and a decent OT who works with equipment and facilities approach being used for that. SO bathboards/chairs, equipment, carers and looking into the bathing facility itself maybe needing changing as well as advice on alternatives like wipes and hoists for those more ill. But also of course having less 'other stuff' putting someone beyond their envelope and/or ill (and vice versa)

It is no use telling someone in a job/education that isn't remote about pacing, even if you were a clinic with staff who actually 'get it' and know that reducing overall exertion is needed without eg then doing something to address the workplace expectations that would dictate how much and when you'd need to bathe and taking seriously the above - it's not an activity where people are 'overdoing their showers and need teaching' or can be broken up-, you can only make it less exerting and showering less often.

So even if it was just on an activity level, the very fact that I'm not sure / familiar with what level of illness she is talking about or what % that would include where showers don't affect or become hard when one is in PEM or you have to wait until you feel up to it, and yet it is a potential daily chore one can only avoid on certain days makes that 'belief' of what they think PEM is/the concept of the illness rather strange.

And very much makes me think of the classic game of getting people people to do a short course where they go temporarily part-time and/or stop going grocery shopping in order to be able to attend the clinic on a workday afternoon and do daily handstands. And someone just measures 'recovery' as how long they can hold a handstand for
 
The aim is to identify, understand and quantify people’s symptoms and disabilities.

No in principle problem with this bit, though it is hardly novel or insightful.

It will support goal setting, treatment planning, and monitor changes.

Massive problem with the first two of those. Goal setting is just the standard infantilising insulting time-wasting managerial psycho-behavioural garbage we have been getting forced down our throats for decades.

And there is no effective treatment.
 
9. The following questions are about activities you might do during a typical day. Does your health limit you in these activities? If so, how much?[

Options for each activity:
Yes, a lot,
Yes, limited a little,
No, not limited at all


Vigorous activities, such as running, lifting heavy objects, participating in strenuous sports

Moderate activities, such as moving a table, pushing a vacuum cleaner, bowling, or playing golf

Lifting or carrying groceries

Climbing several flights of stairs

Climbing one flight of stairs

Bending, kneeling, or stooping

Walking more than a mile

Walking several blocks

Walking one block

Bathing or dressing yourself


Firstly I think the ambiguity in both deliberately (she has had enough information to have chosen the ignorance) saying 'symptoms after' to muddy PEM from just feeling crap and from fatiguability - so that definition of 'can't' is shot. Making all the answers BS uninterpretable.

Secondly her use of 'some of the time' type answers are deliberately ambiguous and undefined and it is unforgivable as far as market research goes... because it makes it uninterpretable as people will be meaning different things.

But thirdly shows an utter missing of the point - she hasn't even clarified that if people tick all 10 on the list as their health doesn't limit them walking a mile 'on a typical day' because they work 5 days a week and 'could if they have to' then are bed-bound the rest of the time, and also the other 9 then she has no clue either whether that means they can do one day with one of those, or one day with all 10, or all 10 every day without fail because they walk a mile into work after a shower then vacuum and play rubgy... and has no clue what the payback will be. Or whether it is someone more experienced who knows they can down 5 coffees and force themselves to do them all but it would put them off work for a month.

Worse, and what looks cynical is that she knows full well that people go from 5 days to 4 days at work first. That they stop playing 'strenuous sport' every day.. but could and maybe do 'on a typical day' which doesn't mean 'on every typical day' so still have no new box to tick. That it is probably 6months of not having been able to find a moment where they could do the hoovering and be the one to get groceries before they admit to themselves that maybe it is their health 'limiting them' because it needs to be worded rather specifically to say not 'if you had to do one of these' but be more specific.

And because the typical day nonsense isn't 'how many days a week/month' could you

Further the 'can' nature of the 'limited by' is nonsense. I learned to take the lift at work, but it didn't mean I'd say I was 'limited' at doing stairs in the way this was written - but it would add up to make a difference to something else. They aren't treating severe people so what the heck is this list about and of relevance for when it is written in this way?


And I'm sorry but she/that team can read and is absolutely obligated to have read the literature and looked at funcap so know full well the answers to that are relevant to the illness by saying to each item instead:
0: I cannot do this
1: My capacity will be severely reduced for at least three days
2: I can do little else on the same day and for one to two days afterwards
3: I can do little else on the same day
4: I must limit other activities on the same day
5: This rarely affects other activities
6: Unproblematic – does not affect other activities

And once you start looking at the days which aren't your best (which could be 3 out of 4 in PEM, when I was at work it was only 2 days I could shower as I worked from home), and people who are more severe then:
Can I just note the
'Bathing OR dressing yourself'
as if the two are the same!

The fact that someone doesn't get 'having a shower/bath' is the known acid test you are most likely to feel unwell for with ME/CFS being put on the same thing as 'dressing yourself' when that could be a different ballpark and can be completely adjusted/how long is a piece of string depending on the context you are dressing for being joggers for at home unshowered vs trying to get a suit on.


More to the point what kind of person would lump together, or choose:
Moderate activities, such as moving a table, pushing a vacuum cleaner, bowling, or playing golf

When moving a table could mean a side table or pushing something light across the floor vs trying to get a marble table through a narrow doorway but the latter has little relevance to a 'typical day'. And moving a side table to put your teacup on has no bearing on being able to play 18 holes of golf. And that could be a putting green or driving range. Or even travel to go bowling, which would require being presentable and in company.

So someone who could play 18 holes normally would have to become so decrepit between filling ins to find they can't even move a light table or lift a handheld vacuum to just gloss over the floor of that one room with crumbs (as many will forget their hoover might already be the adapted type as its 2026 so most without disability don't push wheelbarrow types and do the whole house at once) 'on a typical day' in order for their answer to that one to change. And it be interpreted however way by the reader of said answers.

I'm sorry but have these just been taken from an old book from a few decades out of date written for old people to measure their frailty to do with age and various limitations those retired and old in the 80-90s had with heavy hoovers (female) or struggling on the golf course (male)? Because it seems so given the 'bending, kneeling, stooping' being one of a very small list.
 
The aim is to identify, understand and quantify people’s symptoms and disabilities.

No in principle problem with this bit, though it is hardly novel or insightful.
Well, the identify and quantify bits are okay, the 'understand' bit is worrying.
 
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