“The real me shining through M.E.”: Visualizing masculinity and identity threat in men with ME/CFS using photovoice and IPA.- Wilde et al 2020

And I write as a female who has been kicked up the rear and had her head bashed against a concrete floor, while having her throat strangled, all for being 'lazy'...by a man who earned over £100,000 in the year I left him!

 

Yes, indeed, some of the 22% and 54% who didn't say it was "very important" could rule out many people with ME and probably do.

All I can say is that the overall effect doesn't seem to be equal, from what I've seen over the years, in terms of the end result of marriage, having children, etc. I tried to think of men with ME in my country who were not working full-time, who got married. I can think of one man in his forties who married another woman in her forties (so too late to have children); she also had health problems and was unable to work while he, though not able to work, did have a significant asset as he owned his own home. While it is not uncommon for women with ME who are not working full-time or at all to get married, often have children, etc.

In a thread discussing masculinity and identity, I think it is relevant to point out differences like this. The percentages of heterosexual men and heterosexual women (along with homosexual men, homosexual women, bisexual men, etc.) who experience certain scenarios aren't necessarily exactly the same. This seems to be recognised in some areas and I don't see why it couldn't happen and be recognised in this area.

 

I'm very sorry to hear you experienced that.

 

Yeah, one of the many 'secondary gains' of having ME!

 

But you are only seeing those active in forums and support groups, this isn't necessarily reflective of the CFS/ME population overall (I've never joined a support group and only joined this forum about 15 months ago, despite having ME since 1993). I know my own daughters would be devastated if they were unable to work full time. My eldest doesn't have a partner and her career is far more important to her than having a relationship (she is heterosexual and looks feminine). I think all her female friends developed their career prior to getting into a serious relationship.

Things have also changed dramatically in the UK with regards to the support for single parents. I only managed for so long without claiming disability benefits because at the time of my divorce, single parents could claim Income Support with no job seeker requirements up until their youngest turned 16. Now single mums have to look for work once their youngest is 3 years old!

https://www.gingerbread.org.uk/info...rsal-credit/job-seeking-rules-single-parents/

So being able to work is as important for a woman as it is for a man now, even if planning to get married and have children (remember 50% of marriages end in divorce).

 

I also felt trapped in an abusive marriage because of having moderate to severe M.E. and not being able to be financially independent, as well as worrying about social services taking the children away if I were to leave my husband. I think 'gender identity' is the least of many M.E. sufferer's problems (and I write as someone who studied 'Gender Issues' as part of my Psychology degree as a mature student with M.E. at the time).

 

I don't see how that shows that the attractiveness of a woman to a man is equally affected by not been able to work at all, or only part-time, as the attractiveness of a man who can't work or can only work part-time is to a woman?

As I said earlier, I don't think it's perfectly controversial to say that (heterosexual) men and women don't put the same weight on various factors when assessing the attractiveness of somebody of the opposite sex.

 

It might not be controversial, but that doesn't mean it is empirically correct. I really don't give much credence to these sorts of surveys and informal observations, for multiple reasons. Obviously, people can have opinions on this issue, but that doesn't mean there is any science or fact behind them.

 

My eldest used to say her problem was that she would see a man in a nightclub who looked very attractive - until they opened their mouth...

Of course I'm sure this problem works both ways for women and men of any sexuality or gender identity!

 

Because there is a vast difference between an initial (superficial) attraction and the deep sustainable attraction that is needed for a successful relationship between two adults living in modern society. If a man is basing his 'masculine identity' on the former, I would say he is being very unwise. The type of survey you quote is really only asking about the former - how attraction works between 2 individuals in reality is far more complex and nuanced.

If a man doesn't take into account a woman's actual (life-time needs) I would say that he will very quickly become unattractive to her. Obviously, this principle applies to all genders and all people of any sexuality in a relationship.

 

On the issue of evidence, I've read multiple posts on how much giving up their careers has devastated both men and women - I've not been struck by any gender difference in this regard. I can't remember reading any posts by women with M.E. who have said that giving up their career was easy, or that it didn't impact on how they felt about themselves, or that they were perfectly happy depending financially on their male partner (as opposed to being thankful that there was an additional income available to support them).

 

As there is no central process for deciding what sort of ME research will be done, and if you're a social scientist whose work involves gender studies, it makes perfect sense to me that if you're interested in ME you might use whatever resources you have access to to examine how gender affects those with ME. Regardless of your gender, gender does affects all of us whether we like it to or not. While thankfully we are moving away from insisting that a woman is only valuable if she produces children and that she needs a man to take care of her, those attitudes in society still remain. So having a disease that affects your ability to produce children or your ability to take care of a woman will mean that those gender attitudes are going to impact you on some level whether you pay any mind to them or not. Many women still want men who will open doors for them and bring them flowers and many men still want a woman who can cook and clean. Should they? That is entirely beside the point as people simply do want those things. Just because you personally may think you're beyond gender constructs doesn't mean everybody else is (I knew someone who raised her son gender neutral, dressing him in girls clothes one day and boys the next, but this is exceptional, not the norm). And ME is going to affect how those gender constructs apply to men and women differently. It's not about which gender suffers more but about how they suffer. And frankly, this is exactly what BPS research is for, not in trying to treat anything (as it can't) but in helping contextualize our psychological suffering, especially as biomedical research is unable at this time to alleviate it.

 

But if the methodology is poor, there are lots of assumptions being made that avoid complexity, and the researcher is imposing their own 'constructs' on their research data (difficult not to do when using qualitative methods, including surveys) the results will be meaningless.

 

I couldn't get access (via Sci-hub) to the original research article posted in this thread. But I did manage to find a journal article by the psychologists elaborating the methods these researchers used. in reaching their conclusions. Make of it what you will:

https://sci-hub.tw/https://www.tand...1080/14780887.2017.1329364?journalCode=uqrp20

 

https://www.dora.dmu.ac.uk/handle/2086/17973
Full copy of article pre-publication (55.15Kb)
https://www.dora.dmu.ac.uk/bitstrea...cepted 30-04-2019.docx?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

This version doesn't include the photographs.

 

It's a generally sympathetic article. It doesn't include anything that resembled CBT or graded exercise therapy approaches or ideologies.

I did find quite a bit of discussion of masculinities frustrating as I will elaborate below.

 

I've no problem with the following:

 

Where they attempt to summarise the existing evidence with regard to men:

The bolded bit contains quite bold statements. I've no idea whether the papers referenced justify such claims, I suspect the evidence isn't strong, if it exists at all.

 

I'm not convinced those are the only 4 masculine statuses.

With regard to the data from this study (i.e. the Analysis & Discussion and Evaluation sections), "hegemonic" is mentioned 6 times while "complicit" and "subordinated" are not mentioned at all; "marginalized" is mentioned twice ["he is marginalized from hegemonic masculinity" and "men with M.E./CFS present as a marginalized sub-group who are at-risk of both masculine and identity threat."]

I find quite a bit of the analysis frustrating: it's along the lines of if only these silly men would give up on their supposed "hegemonic masculinity", life would be a lot easier for them. From what I recall, many of the reactions didn't seem particularly abnormal.

 

It's interesting to me that they explicitly mention the approach "adopts the philosophy of ' scholarly activism'" which many academics might try to avoid.