Brain cells

Posts moved from: Eccentric medium spiny neuron (eMSN)


So we've come full circle and the psychs were right? After decades of psychologisation we didn't even get to enjoy an entire 12 months of being believed by our GPs and families and friends. We're back to ME being compared to anxiety and depression and being treated as psychiatric.

Is there an appropriate thread I can talk about the emotional and mental impact of this? Beacuse ironically I think I might finally be feeling like I'm becoming anxious and depressed about these findings.
 
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So we've come full circle and the psychs were right? After decades of psychologisation we didn't even get to enjoy an entire 12 months of being believed by our GPs and families and friends. We're back to ME being compared to anxiety and depression and being treated as psychiatric.

Is there an appropriate thread I can talk about the emotional and mental impact of this? Beacuse ironically I think I might finally be feeling like I'm becoming anxious and depressed about these findings.
I don't know that anyone here's saying that MECFS is a psychiatric illness in the sense that they are, just that there may be some similarities in the brain cells involved(?), but yes, this line of inquiry is starting to make me a little uncomfortable too.

I am worried the BPS crew will jump on this to prove they were right and ship us off to FND specialists.

Obviously we want the truth and we're following the data, I'm just wary of the psychs coming in and shutting it all down again.
 
To be honest I sometimes think 'depression' and 'anxiety' in the clinical sense are probably organic not psychological illnesses anyway. In the sense that I think being depressed after bad life events is being comflated with an organic illness (or several) that is called 'depression' but is not caused by emotions or circumstances.

Maybe that is influenced by my own symptoms being dismissed as depression for so long though.

And schizophrenia seems to possibly have an immune link now doesn't it?
 
I have no knowledge of this science but I am guessing that the association with depression, anxiety, schizophrenia etc is a bit like finding out someone is from the United States. All it tells you is that they are American.

As in, that’s a big place, you don’t know which state, city, county and you also don’t the methods they used to get to your front door.

Could have been private jet, boat and two trains and a taxi, or a plane, tube and bicycle. Could have taken a day or a week. Could have been easy or difficult, expensive or cheap.

I think a BPS type jumping on this as “proof” we all need to get up and out would display a (predictably) poor understanding of a complex scientific discussion.
 
To be honest I sometimes think 'depression' and 'anxiety' in the clinical sense are probably organic not psychological illnesses anyway. In the sense that I think being depressed after bad life events is being comflated with an organic illness (or several) that is called 'depression' but is not caused by emotions or circumstances.
I had actually thought that this was fairly well established, however widespread the ignorance and prejudice against the "lazy" and "weak" individuals afflicted by it might be, though I could be wrong on this point (and this is not intended as an attack!). Doesn't the very fact that we have a genetic profile here for depression suggest this? Certainly, clinical depression runs in families, even among those related by blood with no contact with one another (thereby reducing the likelihood of a "nurture" explanation).

The danger of this being seized upon by BPS/FND types is no doubt real (as if they needed another excuse), but the takeaway should be recognition that these people have as little to offer those suffering from depression as they do pwME. Their ideas and practices are also harmful to the depressed.

I am very sorry for (and deeply sympathize with) the suffering you've experienced in having your depression dismissed as being "just" depression. Depression destroys lives and, in its clinical form, is absolutely an "organic illness," one that can be profoundly disabling.
 
Perhasp the key difference is that the psychs in question called their departments psychological medicine, with a great flurry of trumpets and insisted that ME/CFS was perpetuated psychologically. Which means psychodynamically which just means bullshit.

There is no shame in having a neuropsychiatric aspect to a disease. It just means that it affects thinking - which ME/CFS does. The psychs were wrong. They denied there was a neuropsychiatric problem - which for them came under "bio".
 
I am very sorry for (and deeply sympathize with) the suffering you've experienced in having your depression dismissed as being "just" depression. Depression destroys lives and, in its clinical form, is absolutely an "organic illness," one that can be profoundly disabling.
Thank you. Yeah I didn't mean to disparage the seriousness of depression. I have really struggled with it over the years. I think it's fairly likely I have both organic depression and MECFS but since my prodromal onset came at a time when I was profoundly situationally depressed and I was immediately put in the 'depression and anxiety' diagnostic wastebin, it's hard to say. I certainly have situational depression!

I'm drafting an in depth post about my prodromal onset currently as I think it could be an interesting jumping off point for discussion of the issue more widely.
 
Some thoughts on the brain angle, because I'm optimistic about it. (Feel free to move this to the brain cells thread)

So we've come full circle and the psychs were right?
None of the new genetics would imply that ME/CFS is caused by normal day-to-day anxious feelings or low moods, getting stuck in a rut, or stress etc. If someone in your life believes that, they are still totally wrong. The idea that the thoughts in your head cause ME/CFS has been tested to death and not a single study has ever durably improved an objective end point (i.e. step count), never mind one that matters (i.e. being able to work full time again, or seriously exercise etc.) We are pummelled with this idea because it’s a stupid human bias (the fundamental attribution error — assuming other people’s problems are due to their personality) and because its comforting for people to think their health is under their control.

Also: it sucks to feel horribly ill, be unable to think straight, and have someone around you suggest that maybe what you’re experiencing is 'just' anxiety or depression — it’s such a total misunderstanding of what you’re going though, it’s obvious they aren’t really listening, it comes across as condescending. People are wrong when they say that to us and they are still wrong even if ME/CFS turns out to have genetic overlap with anxiety and or depression. The BSP-types think anxiety and depression *cause* ME/CFS, but the genetic connection suggests both are caused by some third thing (something outside our control, like how our synapses use neurotransmitters or how our eccentric medium spiny neurons grew when we were babies).

We’re in the dark ages of neuroscience and so there’s been tons of room for psychologists to blame everything on the patient. Because the brain has been a black box their theories have been unfalsifiable. But that’s changing. Once we can show pwME/CFS have something biologically different going on, the BPS theories are going to look as silly as arguing that someone can cure their scurvy with positive thinking.

I very much agree with this:
I had actually thought that [depression being biological] was fairly well established, however widespread the ignorance and prejudice against the "lazy" and "weak" individuals afflicted by it might be [...] the takeaway should be recognition that these people have as little to offer those suffering from depression as they do pwME. Their ideas and practices are also harmful to the depressed.
In my dream world: we cure ME/CFS, and if we need to drag depression and anxiety into the land of real, falsifiable science to do it, that's all the better.
 
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if it’s the same as depression, why don't antidepressants cure it or the sufferers feel depressed?I agreed to start Sertraline and in under a year, I’d declined.
We have the ammunition to fight this BPS stuff already.
My lived experience also fights the BPS stuff.

I had generalized anxiety disorder. when I was 16. It was treated with sertraline. I still have anxiety and panic attacks, as I did before GAD as well. It's a part of myself. But I'm no longer at that disordered level. That is a big difference.

I have been on sertraline since then. When I got sick, lots of things were going right in my life. I did a cool summer semester in a remote location. I was going to start a new bachelor's program. I was doing well. And I got sick then, not during my anxiety disorder.

My psychologist has seen me since I was 15, before I even developped GAD. If I was going through a period of worse mental health or psychosomatic illness, she would have been able to recognize it. She kept on encouraging me to see doctors. She knows it's not something she can treat, compared to the BPS people.

It is distressing to see the possible links with depression and anxiety when we have been told that is what we are suffering from. It's always been a dismissal, just as it's a dismissal of the seriousness of depression and anxiety.

We have to stay focused on the neurological aspects of these illnesses. And, it may be that there are some connections with depression and anxiety here, but not in other places. Paolo's draft clustering of diseases places it far away from psychiatric diseases.
 
None of the new genetics would imply that ME/CFS is caused by normal day-to-day anxious feelings or low moods, getting stuck in a rut, or stress etc. If someone in your life believes that, they are still totally wrong
Once we can show pwME/CFS have something biologically different going on, the BPS theories are going to look as silly as arguing that someone can cure their scurvy with positive thinking.
In a battle of reason, the biomedical view surely wins. But, in my impression, reason hasn't been the issue, marketing has. I don't think BPS theories will look silly to the casual listener. Not even if a cure is found.
The psychs were wrong. They denied there was a neuropsychiatric problem - which for them came under "bio".
I see the B used to give credit to the PS, I see them doing the same with these findings. It doesn't have to be true if it sounds good.

These links are probably not so good for PR. difficult to communicate well.
 
I don't know that anyone here's saying that MECFS is a psychiatric illness in the sense that they are, just that there may be some similarities in the brain cells involved(?), but yes, this line of inquiry is starting to make me a little uncomfortable too.
Thank you for saying so. This research in this thread is not only making me feel disorientated but it's making some in my ME groups spiral. Even though the science is clearly moving forward, it very much feels like we're going backwards again in the sense that the psychs and CBT are already back in the conversation.Screenshot 2026-05-25 at 18.02.16.png
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I am worried the BPS crew will jump on this to prove they were right and ship us off to FND specialists.

Obviously we want the truth and we're following the data, I'm just wary of the psychs coming in and shutting it all down again.
These are exactly my and other patients concerns too.
 
There is no shame in having a neuropsychiatric aspect to a disease. It just means that it affects thinking - which ME/CFS does.
Of course not. My mother has had drug-resistant depression on and off for most of my life and as brutal as MECFS is, I've been grateful to not suffer from what she does. To me, her mental and emotional debilitation seems much scarier to me than my physical limitations.
It just means that it affects thinking - which ME/CFS does. The psychs were wrong. They denied there was a neuropsychiatric problem - which for them came under "bio".
They're already changing their tune on that. According to Paul Garner's post 5 days ago, it's always been "biology and not ideology".

I recall a thread months ago where you (I think) said the BPS-ers would try to spin the emerging direction of research that points toward the brain as their theory all along and I guess it's just frustrating to see them do exactly that.
 
Is this a common use of the term? I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used to describe brain fog.

Neuropsychiatric is chiefly used to describe the way systemic biochemical vascular or other problems impinge on mental function. For hypothyroidism the neuropsychiatric aspects are slow thinking, sleepiness, and if severe, confusion. For hyperthyroidism they are anxiety, hyperactivity and rarely psychosis. For MS they can be almost any interference with thinking including frontal lobe changes with a change in affect. And so on.

Brain fog would naturally be considered a neuropsychiatric feature of ME/CFS. The fact that it is not probably reflects the desire of those who appreciate the reality of such aspects to deny any relation to 'psychology' or indeed psychiatry. I think there is a huge problem within the lay community with confusing 'psychological' in the sense of 'just a belief' and psychiatric, which means your brain is not working properly and that is affecting thinking. Psychotherapists amke a living out of this confusion.
 
Even though the science is clearly moving forward, it very much feels like we're going backwards again in the sense that the psychs and CBT are already back

Having Paul Garner shooting off on social media isn't something I would take too seriously. Garner isn't even a psychiatrist. And he is retired. Garner is a symptom of a confused social state, not a driver. He makes a lot of noise but is unlikely to influence professional groups.

I would discourage people from being in 'ME groups' where this becomes just a negative meme. We are not even talking about 'ME' any more. People need to keep up to speed. If they want to soak themselves in folklore I don't think we should waste time trying to deal with it to be honest.
 
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