Gulf War Illness - causes

[Suffolkres]

Dr. Komaroff (in 2018) briefly discusses the 2017 paper by Halpin P., et al.



https://youtu.be/VprqU9knS4Y?t=1533

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Gulf-War-syndrome-not...
Gulf War syndrome which left 250,000 veterans suffering long-term
fatigue and dizziness was caused by exposure to a NERVE AGENT – and
not debris from depleted uranium munitions, study claims
-Gulf War Syndrome has been recorded in thousands of armed forces personnel
-A quarter of a million Gulf War veterans suffer from the mysterious condition
-It can cause fatigue, headaches, joint pain, indigestion, insomnia
and dizziness
-It was long thought to be caused by exposure to debris from depleted uranium
-Now it is thought to be caused by exposure to sarin gas when Iraqi
weapons cache was destroyed in January 1991

 

[Sly Saint]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Gulf-War-syndrome-not...
Gulf War syndrome which left 250,000 veterans suffering long-term
fatigue and dizziness was caused by exposure to a NERVE AGENT – and
not debris from depleted uranium munitions, study claims
-Gulf War Syndrome has been recorded in thousands of armed forces personnel
-A quarter of a million Gulf War veterans suffer from the mysterious condition
-It can cause fatigue, headaches, joint pain, indigestion, insomnia
and dizziness
-It was long thought to be caused by exposure to debris from depleted uranium
-Now it is thought to be caused by exposure to sarin gas when Iraqi
weapons cache was destroyed in January 1991

direct link:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...-caused-depleted-uranium-munitions-study.html
eta:
"Scientists believe the root cause appears to be down to neurological impairment"

 

[Forbin]

I thought one of the proposed causes of GWI had to do with the multiple vaccines and anti-nerve agents that the soldiers were given.

 

[rvallee]

I thought one of the proposed causes of GWI had to do with the multiple vaccines and anti-nerve agents that the soldiers were given.

Doubtful we'll really know for sure, as whatever was given to the soldiers is classified and by the time it's declassified, it will be too late to research the subjects.

I'm not sure about the Sarin. It's far too many people affected, it could not have possibly spread enough to affect so many people without acutely affecting those closest to the source. There sure weren't hundreds of thousands of soldiers hanging around weapons depots being blown up. The DU was always a weird thing, it's not as if we don't already have a lot of research on radioactive poisoning.

 

[Sphyrna]

I have an airman friend who suffered GWS, and she wasn't even part of the Gulf War. It was from the anthrax vaccine, but the burning trash pits in Afghanistan, and working with JP8 fuel and hydrazine day in and out probably didn't do wonders for her health either. Wonder how many cases of anthrax that vaccine actually prevented, because I have the feeling it might've been one of the worst cost-benefit disasters in medical history.
I wonder how much ME and GWS actually differ at all, because we're not different in terms in symptomology. NADH supplements help her, though, while they do nothing for me...

 

[Amw66]

I thought one of the proposed causes of GWI had to do with the multiple vaccines and anti-nerve agents that the soldiers were given.

I can remember one successful legal action to retain pension provision by a Scottish soldier who got GWI without going to the gulf. It was successfully argued to be due to the vaccination protocol.

Multiple vaccinations in a short time period. Vaccine brought in from elsewhere ( suggestions of use of products unlicensed here due to supply issues ).
Mention of squalene (?)

Like most things it will be a combination of external.and internal factors.

The bombing of the coca cola factory , burning oil and chemical soup used on clothes etc and high levels of stress don't really sound a wonderful combo for health without depleted uranium .

 

[Suffolkres]

'While the exposure to sarin gas from the Iraqi enemy most likely is to blame for the Gulf War Syndrome, the researchers also say the liberal use of pesticides as insect repellent may also have been an 'own goal' and compounded the damage from sarin gas and contributed to the prevalence of the condition.

DEET and permethrin were liberally given to soldiers to fend off swarms of mosquitoes causing a malaria outbreak at the time ' (My emphasis) -

GWS is not dissimilar to symptoms in ME (ref; Professor Malcolm Hooper Overlapping Syndromes) GWV advisor Myalgic encephalomyelitis: a review with emphasis on key findings in biomedical research https://jcp.bmj.com/content/60/5/466

So the following is very useful and interesting to listen to. https://sustainablefoodtrust.org/podcast/episode-27-with-zach-bush/ * References human exposure from air, water Soil, food etc- below

It follows my particular interest & experiences from coping with 2 family members - for 40 yrs with ME allergy, insensitivities;
I accords with Robert Naviaux paper which I sent to Baroness Finlay ( Vice chair of ME NICE Review) for the debate on the Agriculture Bill and from which she quoted in her debate.

Air Pollution comes in many guises and forms.
We all know that particulates are highly damaging to human Health.

The paper Perspective: Cell danger response Biology-The new science that connects environmental health with mitochondria and the rising tide of chronic illness - Robert K. Naviaux was referred to by Baroness Finlay in support for amendment 11 in September’s debate. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724919302922
Please follow the science (and learn from current modelling & evidence)

I have lived in a beautiful but ‘toxic’ environment impacted by agriculture for 44 years.
Despite indisputable medical and research evidence of risks and harm from pesticides in the air, resulting in development of many long term conditions, I very concerned that rural residents, like me, continue not to be afforded any protection from the spraying of agricultural pesticides on crops.
When gardens like mine are impacted next to sprayed crops, the visible damage to gardens following spraying, (see below recent damage to walnut and roses) show that residents like me, are equally impacted and therefore are effectively being treated like collateral damage.
It is understandable why this Tory Government would reject & seek to avoid this public health risk and liability but there is no excuse for Labour to fail to work in the public interest. It’s a no brainer.

And,

'Baroness Finlay,

I am concerned that some members of the house of Lords may be being pressured not to support this amendment or to take seriously the advice and information you provided in September for which I was most grateful. As Vice chair of the NICE Review on ME you know as well as anyone just how critical this condition can be, pesticide chemical exposure is undoubtedly part of the story for some patients.
Professor Steven Holgate was recently knighted. He was involved in this research which links agricultural pesticides to altered gene expression and ME and CFS.
https://jcp.bmj.com/content/61/6/730.full
Seven genomic subtypes of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis: a detailed analysis of gene networks and clinical phenotypes
CFS/ME subtype, we determined those genes whose expression differed significantly from ... nervous system, OP-modified NTE initiates neurodegeneration. ... Harrison TJ, Wilkinson RJ, Tyrrell DA, Holgate ST, Kerr JR.

Please use your influence to help us here.'

We are all, both urban and rural, living in a chemical soup and cocktail effects will follow. Chronic long term conditions like ME will ensue.

& living for 45 years right next to sprayed fields ( 8 feet) and also explains the chronicity of conditions which are associated to exposure to these products. (agricultural)
& also domestic; fly sprays, permethrin etc like Johnson's Raid which acutely poisoned my son in 2001,
pet flea sprays once contained OP's ( Nuvan Top),
head lice treatments
& wood treatments used in the 1970/1980's like lindane, know to cause liver damage and other problems and now banned.


*
'In this week’s podcast, Patrick Holden speaks to Dr Zach Bush – the internationally renowned, multi-disciplinary physician, founder of Farmers’ Footprint. Together, they discuss the intricate intersections between the microbiome, nutrition and chronic diseases, highlighting the devastating impact of chemical herbicides and pesticides on both soil and human health.

Zach begins by outlining the context of his research, to illustrate how he first came to untangle some of these complex correlations. He explains that the early stages of his medical career in the 1990s coincided with an unprecedented rise in chronic diseases across the US. At the same time Zach witnessed a major breakthrough in genetics which challenged the old scientific orthodoxy which considered the human cell as the epicentre of our health and immunity. The new knowledge suggested that, instead, we should be focusing on the microbiome, the communities of bacteria, viruses and fungi that populate our cells. Furthermore, the study of epigenetics reveals that the microbiome is highly susceptible to its external environment, which would in turn suggest that factors such as nutrition and agriculture have a major impact on human health. '
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For those interested;

This important update was posted to the petition last night at https://tinyurl.com/s6b3aalj so some of you may have already seen it from there but am sending here also.
I have also attached for information and reference the full detailed briefing referred to in the below.

Dear All,
TAKE ACTION: Please take a few mins to submit to DEFRA Consultation on pesticides open til 26 Feb!

Please can any rural residents affected by the spraying of pesticides on crops in the locality of our homes, schools, playgrounds, nurseries etc., as well as any others who are concerned for all rural residents and communities that are affected by the cocktails of pesticides sprayed on crops, submit to the current DEFRA Consultation on the draft National Action Plan on pesticides which is open for submissions/responses until 26th February 2021.

The documentation regarding the DEFRA Consultation on the draft National Action Plan (NAP) on pesticides can be seen at: https://consult.defra.gov.uk/pestic...nable-use-of-pesticides-national-action-plan/

Please do take just a few minutes to do this as it is so very important for the protection of rural residents and communities, other species, and the environment as the two most important commitments that are needed in the National Action Plan are for: 1) the urgent need to secure the protection for rural residents and communities from agricultural pesticides; and 2) the need to adopt and utilise a truly sustainable non-chemical farming system for the overall protection of human health and the environment.

Please do detail your own experiences of pesticide spraying in your locality and the crucial fact that rural residents and communities are not currently protected from agricultural pesticides sprayed on crops.

 

[Mij]

Dr. Byron Hyde:

Non-Infectious M.E. Type Disease: I have not discussed noninfectious M.E.-type disease. Similar M.E phenomena can occur due to CNS injuries from toxic chemical injury. I have seen this in police officers who have fallen into toxic chemical ponds in pursuit of those suspected of criminal activity. I have seen it in farmers repeatedly exposed to pesticides and herbicides, in hospital and industrial workers and in military personnel in contact with toxic chemicals, specifically toxic gases. I will discuss these at a later date as Secondary M.E. They do have one thing in common, and that is they also have a diffuse CNS injury as noted on brain SPECT scans. The diagnosis is made by history, as the actual cases are very difficult to diagnose due to the inability to assess brain levels of toxins in a live patient. Often these Secondary M.E. diseases are more severe than the infectious M.E. cases.

 

[dave30th]

Can someone summarize what Wessely's position on GWI was or is? I read a paper from around 20 years ago when he seemed skeptical but has he pronounced on it since then or has he skipped away from past arguments?

 

[ME/CFS Skeptic]

Can someone summarize what Wessely's position on GWI was or is? I read a paper from around 20 years ago when he seemed skeptical but has he pronounced on it since then or has he skipped away from past arguments?

Wessely did an important study where he showed that employment in the Gulf War was associated with increased health complaints that weren't seen in the Bosnia conflict or those military men serving during the Gulf War but not deployed there. It was reported in the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(98)11338-7/fulltext

There was however no distinct clinical pattern that stood out. Patients with Gulf War Illness reported all sort of symptoms more often.
I suspect Wessely thought it was similar to CFS and other functional somatic symptoms and that the syndrome was mostly the result of psychosocial factors.

 

[Perrier]

This is a digression: the winter before the pandemic I met a woman in Florida who lived in New York during 9/11, and she was near the buildings which were hit, very near. Her apartment was literally a block away. She became very ill, with what resembles CFS/ME to my eyes. She told me that the government is not really paying too much attention to people like her and she told me there were thousands of them. She said the air was so toxic after the attack, and this lasted for a long time.They have tried to organise to get financial help for their medical problems. She told me that she was in Florida to get nutritional IVs, and various other things from an alternative doctor. She worked in some business corporation before the attack. It was a dreadful story, and I spoke with her every day for about two weeks. I watched and she literally walked like a 90 year old and was about 45. She told me she had fatigue and became sick when she tried to exert. I mention this because the topic here is the Gulf war.

 

[Sphyrna]

This is a digression: the winter before the pandemic I met a woman in Florida who lived in New York during 9/11, and she was near the buildings which were hit, very near. Her apartment was literally a block away. She became very ill, with what resembles CFS/ME to my eyes. She told me that the government is not really paying too much attention to people like her and she told me there were thousands of them. She said the air was so toxic after the attack, and this lasted for a long time.They have tried to organise to get financial help for their medical problems. She told me that she was in Florida to get nutritional IVs, and various other things from an alternative doctor. She worked in some business corporation before the attack. It was a dreadful story, and I spoke with her every day for about two weeks. I watched and she literally walked like a 90 year old and was about 45. She told me she had fatigue and became sick when she tried to exert. I mention this because the topic here is the Gulf war.

You'll be elated to know that our old friend Simon Wessely had already solved that particular mystery. https://www.spiked-online.com/2002/05/23/world-trade-centre-syndrome/

 

[Sisyphus]

I thought one of the proposed causes of GWI had to do with the multiple vaccines and anti-nerve agents that the soldiers were given.

Sarin is a whole lot more likely as an explanation. The items you mention have a reasonable degree of testing to achieve safety, well siren had an extensive amount of testing to achieve lethality

Edit: It’s very possible that the stuff given to soldiers heading for the golf war didn’t go through the same level of safety testing as what is approved for the general public.

 

[Sisyphus]

Doubtful we'll really know for sure, as whatever was given to the soldiers is classified and by the time it's declassified, it will be too late to research the subjects.

I'm not sure about the Sarin. It's far too many people affected, it could not have possibly spread enough to affect so many people without acutely affecting those closest to the source. There sure weren't hundreds of thousands of soldiers hanging around weapons depots being blown up. The DU was always a weird thing, it's not as if we don't already have a lot of research on radioactive poisoning.

Depleted with uranium is not radioactive. The radioactive isotopes are what is depleted.

 

[Forbin]

They were also concerned about anthrax.

During the 1990-91 Persian Gulf War, then-Navy corpsman David Ridenhour often browbeat troops in 1st Battalion, 5th Marines to take their medications — the anti-nerve agent pyridostigmine bromide and another pill, new to the market, to prevent anthrax.

Ridenhour took them. And while he doesn't completely blame his Gulf War illness symptoms on the drugs, he was interested to learn that last summer the Food and Drug Administration toughened its warnings for Ciprofloxacin, or Cipro, saying the potent antibiotic can cause severe and sometimes permanent nerve damage.

https://www.militarytimes.com/2013/11/01/new-fda-warnings-on-cipro-may-tie-into-gulf-war-illness/

 

[dave30th]

You'll be elated to know that our old friend Simon Wessely had already solved that particular mystery. https://www.spiked-online.com/2002/05/23/world-trade-centre-syndrome/

Interesting. I'd never seen this. The reports of people who were at or near Ground Zero that day and for periods afterwards and had and still have ongoing respiratory and other issues are not some made-up thing. Now if someone wasn't in the area and was claiming long-term symptoms, that's different.

 

[Sly Saint]

Can someone summarize what Wessely's position on GWI was or is? I read a paper from around 20 years ago when he seemed skeptical but has he pronounced on it since then or has he skipped away from past arguments?

https://www.s4me.info/threads/why-doesn’t-me-cfs-show-up-on-tests-why-has-it-been-vulnerable-to-wessley-et-al-in-a-way-alzheimer’s-etc-hasn’t-been.18468/#post-315273

eta:
https://www.s4me.info/threads/prof-...-life-scientific-bbc-radio-4-14-feb-2017.991/

 

[Sphyrna]

They were also concerned about anthrax.

I can certainly confirm that Cipro is more than sufficient to send you on a one-way-trip to CFS city. From another source, I read that the military handed out Cipro at a dosage 500mg b.i.d. for 40 days for Anthrax prophylaxis. I took the same dosage for half the duration, on two different occasions (doesn't matter much; the damage is cumulative), but I'm probably like six stone lighter than your average Marine, and medics generally do not take such trifles as sex and weight into account in their prescription calculus. It's difficult to find official information on the subject, likely because no one could be assed to actually investigate any of this until 2016, when the FDA updated the black box warning to reflect that the medication can cause multisystemic damage, three years after that militarytimes articles was released. Until then, it was all just about connective tissue damages that supposedly only are more common in people over 60. I was 16, and I got the whole bloody package. Spent an entire year on crutches, which the medics interpreted as some weird form of conversion disorder. Ironically, I took it the same the year the FDA updated their warning, but Germany needed three more years to follow up on that one either way.

Also, none of the class-action lawsuits ever ended up amounting to anything, unless you had aortic rupture provably related to this medication. Most people for whom it got this far probably simply died of the complications anyway. Convenient, no? It's also trivially easy to play off the nonspecific complications as unrelated to the medication, since they can be quite delayed by several months (2 in my case.) And since no biomarkers exist, you can just attribute the mental disturbances to new-onset mental illness, and the tendon+cartilage issues to senescence in old people, or stuff like physical work. Easy to do in the Marines, where everyone's part of stuff like loaded marches! I guess for these reasons, no valid safety data on FQAD will ever exist, because the side effects can never be appropriately reported. At any rate, I could certainly believe that Cipro was a common, even if not the only, cause of GWS.
But hey, at least the US air force is nice enough to let their air crew know nowadays what they might be in for when they take it.

 

[Perrier]

I can certainly confirm that Cipro is more than sufficient to send you on a one-way-trip to CFS city.
]

If this is possible, then it must be why my daughter came down with this hell; she came down with ME 2 months after stopping cipro (and flagyl) for clostridium difficile. She had for a few days what she said felt like a flu, and then called me and said she was unable to stand up, unable to rise out of bed. \\

And what now?? She has been very sick for a long time now. What now?

 

[Sphyrna]

If this is possible, then it must be why my daughter came down with this hell; she came down with ME 2 months after stopping cipro (and flagyl) for clostridium difficile. She had for a few days what she said felt like a flu, and then called me and said she was unable to stand up, unable to rise out of bed. \\

And what now?? She has been very sick for a long time now. What now?

Ciprofloxacin administration is explicitly one of the major risk factor for opportunistic C. difficile infection, so this does sound a little unnecessary to me?
Unfortunately I haven't found a solution (if there are any, they're most likely going to be highly individualized, by merit of how FQ antibiotics cause damage), but it does make me wonder what exactly that antibiotic nuke did to her gut flora. I have nowhere enough medical knowledge to issue any specific recommendations, though.

Oh, I just read that your daughter had been taking Cipro for 3.5 months. So not only did she take a potentially neurotoxic medication for much longer than indicated, but also for an infection for which it is likely to be ineffective. I'd... do things to her doctor if I got my hands on him.