Ken Ware - Neurophysics therapy

There has been a lot of talk about anaerobic thresholds but do we have any good evidence for people with ME/CFS going above their threshold or for it to have anything to do with symptoms?

I have read a lot about ME CFS patients going above anaerobic threshold to cause symptoms and PEM-crashes. I could not find a publication at the moment, but I have had different exchanges with PEM-researcher Todd Davenport on the topic.

But I’m mostly going off by my own symptoms and measurements. Also discussed in this post in thread 'Lactic acid, lactate in ME/CFS'
https://www.s4me.info/threads/lactic-acid-lactate-in-me-cfs.44969/post-662992

As I understand: PEM would be caused by crossing the anaerobic threshold : Glycolysis outpacing mitochondrial oxidation
  • Pyruvate ⇒ lactate
  • Lactate accumulates in blood when the exertion intensity > lactate threshold
 
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How long would the threshold need to be crossed for? Ten seconds? Twenty minutes?
How long is this piece of string?
I think the Work-Well foundation has written up some rules.

But I’m afraid is:
- highly individualized
- task dependent
- situation dependent
- infection dependent
- PEM dependent

As also mentioned here:
The Anaerobic Threshold is task specific, so yes patients can go past it depending on the task, independent of the heart rate - the threshold is not fixed to any particular heart rate can can also vary with PEM.
 
I think the Work-Well foundation has written up some rules.

But I’m afraid is:
- highly individualized

But how do we know those rules are valid?
So how do we know any possible relation is highly individualised?
I still see no evidence base for this at all.

People talk of PEM after social interaction. Where is the 'anaerobic threshold' there?

To show that crossing a threshold actually caused PEM would require a whole research programme that as far as I know nobody has attempted.
 
There has been a lot of talk about anaerobic thresholds but do we have any good evidence for people with ME/CFS going above their threshold or for it to have anything to do with symptoms?
Purely anecdotal but with enough strength to it that, combined with the fact that producing high quality evidence is extremely difficult, it should at least be respected, although it should not be taken as a firm thing, doing the same silly mistake of thinking that such thresholds have firm numerical values, such as POTS requiring 30 BPM and concluding that an increase of 29 is the same as 0.

It's more of a rule of thumb that mostly acts as a guide for what it means to pace. There is no exact science, not even an inexact one, no way to define it universally, and these things tend to fluctuate and vary over time anyway. Rules of thumb make are useful when they're the only available option, but they do require a lot of experience and very carefully tuned biases.

Given the tools and methods of medicine, given how there obviously is no firm quantity of something that can be measured here, I don't think it's possible to do this scientifically, and probably not yet, but ever. There are things where scientific certainty is simply not available, and where deciding to ignore it as it if doesn't matter is just as bad an option, and this is one of them.

Most likely at some point there will be treatments that simply make this problem not matter anymore because it will have been bypassed entirely, which is just about the only way we ever solve problems of this type. Nobody has to worry about the right level of sweetness in urine is concerning as possible diabetes, and that's just as well.
 
What does 'task specific' mean?

It means it depends on what you are doing. The heart rate at which the anerobic threshold occurs for riding a bike is different to that of jogging on a treadmill, is different to that of lifting things quickly, is different to that of standing up for a long time.

Measuring what heart rate it occurs at on a bike doesn't generalise to the heart rate it occurs while doing those other tasks.
 
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