Maeve Boothby O'Neill - articles about her life, death and inquest

But why are people getting poor nutrition if not nausea alone, then because of weakness of swallow or chew or stomach muscles?

Or weakness of ability to sit muscles preventing eating. So would that not be ME (or other illnesses undiagnosed) making muscles not function?

I don't think it need be a problem with the muscles themselves. In myasthenia it is a problem with nerve-muscle junctions. In MS it is a problem with spinal cord nerve cells. In supra nuclear palsy it is a problem with cells higher up in the brain.

But more importantly, there are lots of common situations when we cannot do things when all these are normal. Pain can completely stop muscle function in a way that you cannot overcome by willpower. I have had a strange episode when I could not drink water not because of nausea but some other central nervous block, that got better later in the day. With vertigo you cannot stand up because of a central problem. In narcolepsy you cannot use any muscles because your brain turns itself off and you fall asleep. The possibilities are many. The one thing that is very unlikely I think is that muscles are actually weak or lacking in energy supply.

We need to stop thinking about me/CFS in terms of the sort of physiology we get taught at school. I think it will turn out to be something much more subtle. Until people discovered that the curare used on poison arrows mimicked myasthenia gravis nobody had any idea why people were paralysed. Nothing wrong with the muscle itself.
Yes, ME/CFS presents as weakness but it is of a sort that occurs with subtle mechanisms. The respiratory muscles are not affected for instance.
 
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I don't think it need be a problem with the muscles themselves. In myasthenia it is a problem with nerve-muscle junctions. In MS it is a problem with spinal cord nerve cells. In supra nuclear palsy it is a problem with cells higher up in the brain.

But more importantly, there are lots of common situations when we cannot do things when all these are normal. Pain can completely stop muscle function in a way that you cannot overcome by willpower. I have had a strange episode when I could not drink water not because of nausea but some other central nervous block, that got better later in the day. With vertigo you cannot stand up because of a central problem. In narcolepsy you cannot use any muscles because your brain turns itself off and you fall asleep. The possibilities are many. The one thing that is very unlikely I think is that muscles are actually weak or lacking in energy supply.

We need to stop thinking about me/CFS in terms of the sort of physiology we get taught at school. I think it will turn out to be something much more subtle. Until people discovered that the curare used on poison arrows mimicked myasthenia gravis nobody had any idea why people were paralysed. Nothing wrong with the muscle itself.
I phrased that informally/badly, I was thinking of weak muscles in the colloquial, my muscles feel weak sense. But I wasn’t thinking about the muscles themselves really.

A fortunate lapse. Because I am interested in hearing about ways that muscles can stop working thank you.

I guess you meant really truly weak muscles because of malnutrition meaning the muscles can’t repair themselves and then stop function as they should?

But I was wondering, if the muscles can stop working well for whatever reason, to the point that you can’t eat could the also not end up occasionally falling such that you can’t stay alive. How do we know not being able to move or eat is as bad as it can get with ME, could you not die, may your immune system fails making certain chemicals or whatever or your breathing muscles stop functioning or your heart muscle?

Then would ME be potentially fatal?
 
How do we know not being able to move or eat is as bad as it can get with ME, could you not die, may your immune system fails making certain chemicals or whatever or your breathing muscles stop functioning or your heart muscle?

Heart and respiratory muscles are unsurprisingly resistant to most subtle causes of 'weakness' People with myasthenia can die of respiratory muscle failure but they have a defect that we know affects all striated muscle/nerve junctions. Nobody with ME/CFS has ever been recorded as having significant weakness of respiratory or heart muscle function of a sort that might be fatal as far as I know. With maybe a million people with ME/CFS in the USA at any one time if it could kill people that way we would know by now.

Moreover, it is unlikely that swallowing and pharynx muscles are stopped from functioning in ME/CFS. People with diseases that block these muscles from working choke. And stomach muscles are something completely different - smooth muscle that by and large controls its own action. Despite talk of gastroparesis I am not sure we have any evidence for gut muscles not acting in ME/CFS.

I worry that people have been given very misleading ideas about all this. ME/CFS is not a 'multi system disease' in the sense that we know there is pathology in lots of organs. All the organs are normal. Which is why it is such a puzzle.
 
Heart and respiratory muscles are unsurprisingly resistant to most subtle causes of 'weakness' People with myasthenia can die of respiratory muscle failure but they have a defect that we know affects all striated muscle/nerve junctions. Nobody with ME/CFS has ever been recorded as having significant weakness of respiratory or heart muscle function of a sort that might be fatal as far as I know. With maybe a million people with ME/CFS in the USA at any one time if it could kill people that way we would know by now.

Moreover, it is unlikely that swallowing and pharynx muscles are stopped from functioning in ME/CFS. People with diseases that block these muscles from working choke. And stomach muscles are something completely different - smooth muscle that by and large controls its own action. Despite talk of gastroparesis I am not sure we have any evidence for gut muscles not acting in ME/CFS.

I worry that people have been given very misleading ideas about all this. ME/CFS is not a 'multi system disease' in the sense that we know there is pathology in lots of organs. All the organs are normal. Which is why it is such a puzzle.

Okay that’s what I thought. It would be too few people dying for it to be related to ME specifically and directly, rather than mistreatment or non treatment of complications like not being able to eat or drink.

I’ve not generally referred ME as a multi system disease. Because I think it’s a one maybe two system disease. But I had thought that the term ‘multi system’ had another meaning too, that of many body systems and functions being affected. I had absolutely assumed that this was an acceptable use of the term. I guess since it was all over the ME literature from so many different sources. So to be clear, is it not?

Is it mainly the ‘disease’ part that’s the problem because we don’t have pathology. If it was multiple system dysfunction would that be work technically?

If it isn’t, and really only has the specific medical meaning of life organ damage, then I can see why this might be one more contributing factor in doctors not taking us seriously.
 
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Thanks John and Lucibee.

This version contains No 4, which was absent from Dave T's and other online versions:

"4 CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE DEATH

Maeve Boothby was 27 at the time of her death. She was diagnosed with ME at Frenchay hospital in 2011 and in 2019 it became so severe that she was bedbound for 21 hours per day.
Concerns about her rapid physical deterioration escalated and during 2021 she had three admissions to the RDE on 18th March , 19th May – 3rd June and finally on 25th June – 17th August. These admissions were unsuccessful in preventing Maeve from suffering from malnutrition which was a consequence of her ME for which there is no known cure. Maeve sadly died at home on 3rd October 2021."
That’s nice. How does the coroner explain Whitney Dafoe being alive and able to write to her, I wonder?
 
As things stand we have no evidence of any case of ME/CFS being progressive in the sense of actually causing death directly or of a mechanism for that. I think it is much more likely that all the deaths are due to people getting weak because of poor nutrition with complications such as aspiration of gastric contents being common ways that can end.

If ME/CFS caused death directly through a metabolic or muscle weakness mechanism we would have had that well documented decades ago. It is not a rare illness and even if only one person in a hundred had a truly progressive form of that sort we would be seeing tens of deaths according to a pattern each year in the UK alone.

I worry when people talk about deaths being attributable to ME/CFS per se. I don't think we have evidence of it being a direct cause. I think it is easy to give the wrong impression about the illness. The coroner seems to have accepted that Maeve was likely to die of her ME/CFS anyway and I am not sure she understood what was really going on.
The consultants gave that sort of line didn’t they? The Gastroconsult guy (I felt he was obnoxious) and Dr Strain, am sure I recall them talking of terms of her death being inevitable within x number of months.
 
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The possibilities are many. The one thing that is very unlikely I think is that muscles are actually weak or lacking in energy supply.
Leaving aside possible secondary muscle wastage and weakening through insufficient use, I agree about strength. I still have normal muscle strength for my age, maybe even above average. I can still pick up and carry heavy weights, and a number of clinical assessments (mainly physios) over the years have not been able to find any obvious weakness anywhere, which perplexed and perhaps even frustrated the clinicians. The problem is not being unable to use muscles in the first place. The problem is that it is painful to use them at the time of use, and there is a price to pay for it later.

Hence I also don't think there an issue with energy supply, per se. If there is it is most likely to be a secondary feature with the body 'artificially' reducing energy supply (or capacity or drive to use it) as a warning/protective mechanism rather than an inherent incapacity to supply it.

I worry that people have been given very misleading ideas about all this. ME/CFS is not a 'multi system disease' in the sense that we know there is pathology in lots of organs. All the organs are normal. Which is why it is such a puzzle.
But I had thought that the term ‘multi system’ had another meaning too, that of many body systems and functions being affected.
I agree with that interpretation. ME/CFS clearly affects the function of multiple organs and systems, pretty much the entire body even, but there is also no real evidence so far that the organs and systems themselves have any primary pathology. Secondary possibly, but not primary.
 
Column by Sean in today's Times

Streeting must act to give ME patients the care they need.

So it falls to two other recipients of this report — the health secretary, Wes Streeting, and the public health minister, Andrew Gwynne — to take the necessary action. They have the authority to order that research is stepped up, medical training is introduced and specialist care is provided for those most severely ill.


(£)https://www.thetimes.com/comment/co...give-me-patients-the-care-they-need-d7jqr5q5v

Archive:
https://archive.ph/28WKr
 
[Sorry, this is a long post, looking at the history. I am in the process of writing an article related to this which I may post a draft of fairly soon.]

But I had thought that the term ‘multi system’ had another meaning too, that of many body systems and functions being affected.

It is another of those cases where people pick up words and use them in inconsistent ways to try to prove a point when all they are really doing is confusing people and making themselves look foolish to people familiar with the words.

Multi system-disease is used in medicine to mean a process that has identifiable effects on the structure or workings of many systems. Which diseases that covers is pretty arbitrary. Lupus is called multi-system because you get kidney failure as well as arthritis. Diabetes has multi-system effects but because early on we knew there is one central problem of lack of insulin it isn't so often described as multi-system, but it can be. Multiple sclerosis tends not to be called multi-system, although it causes blindness and leg paralysis, because all features of MS are attributable to the same damage to central nervous cells (not even peripheral nerve cells).

So there is no agreement on exactly what deserves calling multi-system but the term is used when discussing what we know about underlying processes we think are causing symptoms. In ME/CFS we have no idea what the processes are so talk in these terms is cheating.

How am I sure this is how it used? In the context of ME/CFS politics I think the best illustration is that if 'ME' were, maybe like 'CFS', psychosomatic, nobody would call it a multi-system disease, despite symptoms everywhere. If it were caused by viruses or autoimmune cells hidden in lots of different tissues it would.

My guess is that the use of 'complex multi-system disease' for ME/CFS (or in fact ME) started with the people who decided to re-write the Canadian criteria with the International Criteria. Fukuda had given criteria for 'CFS' that could be due to anything. The Canadian group wanted to create a consensus that included 'ME'. That made sense in the clinic since both terms pretty much described the same group of people - at least those whose lives were seriously impacted. I forget how much the Canadian criteria talk of causes but it is interesting that the group included people who were to re-convene for the ICC.

The ICC group decided to write new criteria just for 'ME'. I.e. the consensus hadn't worked. Moreover, members like Nancy Klimas were convinced that ME was a 'neuroimmune' disease. (It may be but we don't know.) The ICC criteria were written specifically to describe a neuroimmune disease - a multi-system disease (other systems were thrown in, making it more 'complex'). As a result the ICC do not really make sense and we have no idea whether they recognise anything worth recognising.

The reason why 'neuroimmune' was brought in, I presume, was because 'ME' had originally been the name of a proposed process that produced neurological signs as part of an acute illness at the Royal Free, in Iceland and maybe Incline Village. We still don't know whether there really were any neurological abnormalities in this acute illness and anyway, it is not ME/CFS as we now understand it. It was just one of many infections that can trigger ME/CFS.

So 'complex multi-system disease' entered talk about ME as a way of saying 'this cannot just be psychosomatic CFS because we know it is a specific process that affects nervous immune and other systems - we have evidence'. But we don't. The reason it isn't psychosomatic is that if you listen to people with ME/CFS over a period of years you can see that it doesn't add up. And psychological treatment doesn't work.

But the medical profession as a whole didn't buy this muddle about ME. What they were prepared to buy was the rather sensible Canadian idea that CFS=ME or ME=CFS, if you limit CFS to people with PEM, and they are the people who really need help. And ME here is Ramsay's 'chronic ME' not the acute 'neurological' ME. The psychiatrists preferred CFS/ME but didn't really want to recognise even the limited PEM based Canadian illness. ME/CFS won out, somehow, but 'complex multi-system disease' may have sounded impressive, so people wanted to justify it. They did that by saying that it meant that symptoms were produced in lots of parts of the body. But the truth is that they liked it because it implied that there was a multi system cause that was not psychogenic.

The end result is that although the 2021 NICE Guidelines are a major step forward they still carry all sorts of unhelpful baggage. Ironically, that is baggage of both sorts. There is still mention of multidisciplinary teams of rehabilitating therapists, of the sort beloved by the BPS crowd. There is also still the ghost of the confusion between acute neurological Royal Free disease and ME/CFS. ME/CFS isn't a neurological disease in any sense we understand, either. The WHO probably were as muddled as the ICC people.

I think it is important that people with ME/CFS do not get the impression that there is some dreadful process eating away at all their organs that may eventually kill them in the process. People get so ill they die, yes, but as far as we know if someone found the magic infusion these people could return to normal in an hour or so, just as people with myasthenia or Parkinson's, diabetic coma or Addison's can. In fact even more normal because as far as we know there is no permanent damage to anything in ME/CFS.
 
Yes, I too wish advocates would stop using the 'complex multi-system disease' phrase. It doesn't mean anything helpful. As we have discussed elsewhere, the word 'complex' often implies a psychobehavioural component. Although we don't know what causes ME/CFS, that doesn't mean that the cause is complex. The cause may be relatively simple.
 
[Sorry, this is a long post, looking at the history. I am in the process of writing an article related to this which I may post a draft of fairly soon.]



It is another of those cases where people pick up words and use them in inconsistent ways to try to prove a point when all they are really doing is confusing people and making themselves look foolish to people familiar with the words.

Multi system-disease is used in medicine to mean a process that has identifiable effects on the structure or workings of many systems. Which diseases that covers is pretty arbitrary. Lupus is called multi-system because you get kidney failure as well as arthritis. Diabetes has multi-system effects but because early on we knew there is one central problem of lack of insulin it isn't so often described as multi-system, but it can be. Multiple sclerosis tends not to be called multi-system, although it causes blindness and leg paralysis, because all features of MS are attributable to the same damage to central nervous cells (not even peripheral nerve cells).

So there is no agreement on exactly what deserves calling multi-system but the term is used when discussing what we know about underlying processes we think are causing symptoms. In ME/CFS we have no idea what the processes are so talk in these terms is cheating.

How am I sure this is how it used? In the context of ME/CFS politics I think the best illustration is that if 'ME' were, maybe like 'CFS', psychosomatic, nobody would call it a multi-system disease, despite symptoms everywhere. If it were caused by viruses or autoimmune cells hidden in lots of different tissues it would.

My guess is that the use of 'complex multi-system disease' for ME/CFS (or in fact ME) started with the people who decided to re-write the Canadian criteria with the International Criteria. Fukuda had given criteria for 'CFS' that could be due to anything. The Canadian group wanted to create a consensus that included 'ME'. That made sense in the clinic since both terms pretty much described the same group of people - at least those whose lives were seriously impacted. I forget how much the Canadian criteria talk of causes but it is interesting that the group included people who were to re-convene for the ICC.

The ICC group decided to write new criteria just for 'ME'. I.e. the consensus hadn't worked. Moreover, members like Nancy Klimas were convinced that ME was a 'neuroimmune' disease. (It may be but we don't know.) The ICC criteria were written specifically to describe a neuroimmune disease - a multi-system disease (other systems were thrown in, making it more 'complex'). As a result the ICC do not really make sense and we have no idea whether they recognise anything worth recognising.

The reason why 'neuroimmune' was brought in, I presume, was because 'ME' had originally been the name of a proposed process that produced neurological signs as part of an acute illness at the Royal Free, in Iceland and maybe Incline Village. We still don't know whether there really were any neurological abnormalities in this acute illness and anyway, it is not ME/CFS as we now understand it. It was just one of many infections that can trigger ME/CFS.

So 'complex multi-system disease' entered talk about ME as a way of saying 'this cannot just be psychosomatic CFS because we know it is a specific process that affects nervous immune and other systems - we have evidence'. But we don't. The reason it isn't psychosomatic is that if you listen to people with ME/CFS over a period of years you can see that it doesn't add up. And psychological treatment doesn't work.

But the medical profession as a whole didn't buy this muddle about ME. What they were prepared to buy was the rather sensible Canadian idea that CFS=ME or ME=CFS, if you limit CFS to people with PEM, and they are the people who really need help. And ME here is Ramsay's 'chronic ME' not the acute 'neurological' ME. The psychiatrists preferred CFS/ME but didn't really want to recognise even the limited PEM based Canadian illness. ME/CFS won out, somehow, but 'complex multi-system disease' may have sounded impressive, so people wanted to justify it. They did that by saying that it meant that symptoms were produced in lots of parts of the body. But the truth is that they liked it because it implied that there was a multi system cause that was not psychogenic.

The end result is that although the 2021 NICE Guidelines are a major step forward they still carry all sorts of unhelpful baggage. Ironically, that is baggage of both sorts. There is still mention of multidisciplinary teams of rehabilitating therapists, of the sort beloved by the BPS crowd. There is also still the ghost of the confusion between acute neurological Royal Free disease and ME/CFS. ME/CFS isn't a neurological disease in any sense we understand, either. The WHO probably were as muddled as the ICC people.

I think it is important that people with ME/CFS do not get the impression that there is some dreadful process eating away at all their organs that may eventually kill them in the process. People get so ill they die, yes, but as far as we know if someone found the magic infusion these people could return to normal in an hour or so, just as people with myasthenia or Parkinson's, diabetic coma or Addison's can. In fact even more normal because as far as we know there is no permanent damage to anything in ME/CFS.

I appreciate the context here thank you.

I am glad I haven’t give my doctors any information re ME being a complex (I am with
@Hutan on this) Multi-System (because I was unsure what I’d be saying) disease (I know that they would not look kindly upon me for that one).

But wait have I?
I did request a purple book be sent to GP directly once. I had no idea what was in it. I thought MEA are usually pretty conservative about these things. In Shepard I trust. Je suis épuisée. I’ll hope for the best.
 
People get so ill they die, yes, but as far as we know if someone found the magic infusion these people could return to normal in an hour or so, just as people with myasthenia or Parkinson's, diabetic coma or Addison's can. In fact even more normal because as far as we know there is no permanent damage to anything in ME/CFS.


This needs to be understood and emphasized more by advocates. Compare us to other illnesses where people are switched back on
 
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[Sorry, this is a long post, looking at the history. I am in the process of writing an article related to this which I may post a draft of fairly soon.]



It is another of those cases where people pick up words and use them in inconsistent ways to try to prove a point when all they are really doing is confusing people and making themselves look foolish to people familiar with the words.

Multi system-disease is used in medicine to mean a process that has identifiable effects on the structure or workings of many systems. Which diseases that covers is pretty arbitrary. Lupus is called multi-system because you get kidney failure as well as arthritis. Diabetes has multi-system effects but because early on we knew there is one central problem of lack of insulin it isn't so often described as multi-system, but it can be. Multiple sclerosis tends not to be called multi-system, although it causes blindness and leg paralysis, because all features of MS are attributable to the same damage to central nervous cells (not even peripheral nerve cells).

So there is no agreement on exactly what deserves calling multi-system but the term is used when discussing what we know about underlying processes we think are causing symptoms. In ME/CFS we have no idea what the processes are so talk in these terms is cheating.

How am I sure this is how it used? In the context of ME/CFS politics I think the best illustration is that if 'ME' were, maybe like 'CFS', psychosomatic, nobody would call it a multi-system disease, despite symptoms everywhere. If it were caused by viruses or autoimmune cells hidden in lots of different tissues it would.

My guess is that the use of 'complex multi-system disease' for ME/CFS (or in fact ME) started with the people who decided to re-write the Canadian criteria with the International Criteria. Fukuda had given criteria for 'CFS' that could be due to anything. The Canadian group wanted to create a consensus that included 'ME'. That made sense in the clinic since both terms pretty much described the same group of people - at least those whose lives were seriously impacted. I forget how much the Canadian criteria talk of causes but it is interesting that the group included people who were to re-convene for the ICC.

The ICC group decided to write new criteria just for 'ME'. I.e. the consensus hadn't worked. Moreover, members like Nancy Klimas were convinced that ME was a 'neuroimmune' disease. (It may be but we don't know.) The ICC criteria were written specifically to describe a neuroimmune disease - a multi-system disease (other systems were thrown in, making it more 'complex'). As a result the ICC do not really make sense and we have no idea whether they recognise anything worth recognising.

The reason why 'neuroimmune' was brought in, I presume, was because 'ME' had originally been the name of a proposed process that produced neurological signs as part of an acute illness at the Royal Free, in Iceland and maybe Incline Village. We still don't know whether there really were any neurological abnormalities in this acute illness and anyway, it is not ME/CFS as we now understand it. It was just one of many infections that can trigger ME/CFS.

So 'complex multi-system disease' entered talk about ME as a way of saying 'this cannot just be psychosomatic CFS because we know it is a specific process that affects nervous immune and other systems - we have evidence'. But we don't. The reason it isn't psychosomatic is that if you listen to people with ME/CFS over a period of years you can see that it doesn't add up. And psychological treatment doesn't work.

But the medical profession as a whole didn't buy this muddle about ME. What they were prepared to buy was the rather sensible Canadian idea that CFS=ME or ME=CFS, if you limit CFS to people with PEM, and they are the people who really need help. And ME here is Ramsay's 'chronic ME' not the acute 'neurological' ME. The psychiatrists preferred CFS/ME but didn't really want to recognise even the limited PEM based Canadian illness. ME/CFS won out, somehow, but 'complex multi-system disease' may have sounded impressive, so people wanted to justify it. They did that by saying that it meant that symptoms were produced in lots of parts of the body. But the truth is that they liked it because it implied that there was a multi system cause that was not psychogenic.

The end result is that although the 2021 NICE Guidelines are a major step forward they still carry all sorts of unhelpful baggage. Ironically, that is baggage of both sorts. There is still mention of multidisciplinary teams of rehabilitating therapists, of the sort beloved by the BPS crowd. There is also still the ghost of the confusion between acute neurological Royal Free disease and ME/CFS. ME/CFS isn't a neurological disease in any sense we understand, either. The WHO probably were as muddled as the ICC people.

I think it is important that people with ME/CFS do not get the impression that there is some dreadful process eating away at all their organs that may eventually kill them in the process. People get so ill they die, yes, but as far as we know if someone found the magic infusion these people could return to normal in an hour or so, just as people with myasthenia or Parkinson's, diabetic coma or Addison's can. In fact even more normal because as far as we know there is no permanent damage to anything in ME/CFS.
brilliant explanation, makes total sense to me. I wish we could stop with the "over 9000 published papers showing biomedical abnormalitities" too (or versions of that sentence but they always say 'over 9000', there might have been 9000 apers but they certainly dont prove anything do they, and at one point there was a noticeable jump from I think it was 5 or 6000, suddenely people started saying 9000. It makes me cringe, but i did it myself (with the lower figure) when i was ignorant. Ie before S4.

In case its in any way helpful -knowing what the charities put out - there is an MEA leaflet (for your debunking process) New ME Association Leaflet: Is ME a neurological disease? | 19 February 2020 - The ME Association

MEA clearly think it is neurological (I wouldnt know either way but what you say makes sense to me Jonathan, I just mean that if it contains wrong info it needs retracting/changing
 
[Sorry, this is a long post, looking at the history. I am in the process of writing an article related to this which I may post a draft of fairly soon.]



It is another of those cases where people pick up words and use them in inconsistent ways to try to prove a point when all they are really doing is confusing people and making themselves look foolish to people familiar with the words.

Multi system-disease is used in medicine to mean a process that has identifiable effects on the structure or workings of many systems. Which diseases that covers is pretty arbitrary. Lupus is called multi-system because you get kidney failure as well as arthritis. Diabetes has multi-system effects but because early on we knew there is one central problem of lack of insulin it isn't so often described as multi-system, but it can be. Multiple sclerosis tends not to be called multi-system, although it causes blindness and leg paralysis, because all features of MS are attributable to the same damage to central nervous cells (not even peripheral nerve cells).

So there is no agreement on exactly what deserves calling multi-system but the term is used when discussing what we know about underlying processes we think are causing symptoms. In ME/CFS we have no idea what the processes are so talk in these terms is cheating.

How am I sure this is how it used? In the context of ME/CFS politics I think the best illustration is that if 'ME' were, maybe like 'CFS', psychosomatic, nobody would call it a multi-system disease, despite symptoms everywhere. If it were caused by viruses or autoimmune cells hidden in lots of different tissues it would.

My guess is that the use of 'complex multi-system disease' for ME/CFS (or in fact ME) started with the people who decided to re-write the Canadian criteria with the International Criteria. Fukuda had given criteria for 'CFS' that could be due to anything. The Canadian group wanted to create a consensus that included 'ME'. That made sense in the clinic since both terms pretty much described the same group of people - at least those whose lives were seriously impacted. I forget how much the Canadian criteria talk of causes but it is interesting that the group included people who were to re-convene for the ICC.

The ICC group decided to write new criteria just for 'ME'. I.e. the consensus hadn't worked. Moreover, members like Nancy Klimas were convinced that ME was a 'neuroimmune' disease. (It may be but we don't know.) The ICC criteria were written specifically to describe a neuroimmune disease - a multi-system disease (other systems were thrown in, making it more 'complex'). As a result the ICC do not really make sense and we have no idea whether they recognise anything worth recognising.

The reason why 'neuroimmune' was brought in, I presume, was because 'ME' had originally been the name of a proposed process that produced neurological signs as part of an acute illness at the Royal Free, in Iceland and maybe Incline Village. We still don't know whether there really were any neurological abnormalities in this acute illness and anyway, it is not ME/CFS as we now understand it. It was just one of many infections that can trigger ME/CFS.

So 'complex multi-system disease' entered talk about ME as a way of saying 'this cannot just be psychosomatic CFS because we know it is a specific process that affects nervous immune and other systems - we have evidence'. But we don't. The reason it isn't psychosomatic is that if you listen to people with ME/CFS over a period of years you can see that it doesn't add up. And psychological treatment doesn't work.

But the medical profession as a whole didn't buy this muddle about ME. What they were prepared to buy was the rather sensible Canadian idea that CFS=ME or ME=CFS, if you limit CFS to people with PEM, and they are the people who really need help. And ME here is Ramsay's 'chronic ME' not the acute 'neurological' ME. The psychiatrists preferred CFS/ME but didn't really want to recognise even the limited PEM based Canadian illness. ME/CFS won out, somehow, but 'complex multi-system disease' may have sounded impressive, so people wanted to justify it. They did that by saying that it meant that symptoms were produced in lots of parts of the body. But the truth is that they liked it because it implied that there was a multi system cause that was not psychogenic.

The end result is that although the 2021 NICE Guidelines are a major step forward they still carry all sorts of unhelpful baggage. Ironically, that is baggage of both sorts. There is still mention of multidisciplinary teams of rehabilitating therapists, of the sort beloved by the BPS crowd. There is also still the ghost of the confusion between acute neurological Royal Free disease and ME/CFS. ME/CFS isn't a neurological disease in any sense we understand, either. The WHO probably were as muddled as the ICC people.

I think it is important that people with ME/CFS do not get the impression that there is some dreadful process eating away at all their organs that may eventually kill them in the process. People get so ill they die, yes, but as far as we know if someone found the magic infusion these people could return to normal in an hour or so, just as people with myasthenia or Parkinson's, diabetic coma or Addison's can. In fact even more normal because as far as we know there is no permanent damage to anything in ME/CFS.
This is really interesting and will be a great article, thanks for explaining it to us non-medicals
 
This needs to be understood and emphasized more by advocates.
I think the confusion comes in because people with ME, from anecdotal reports within the community, do seem to die prematurely at higher rates than non disabled people of equivalent demographics and living circumstances. This
may not be the case once suicides are removed from the picture.

Or it may be that like so many other disabled people, people with ‘mental illnesses’ or autism or learning disabilities, people with ME are struggling to get timely testing and investigation for their symptoms and this is leading to later diagnosis or more cancer deaths. Also maybe people with severe ME are too often not physically capable of attending hospital and this is leading to earlier deaths. Or perhaps a decent proportion of people are being misdiagnosed with ME/CFS. When they have other less common more dangerous, especially if unrecognised and untreated, diseases.

But I think more complicated now is the fact that people can have LC meeting the PEM criteria for ME/CFS and getting similarly waste basket-ed by their doctors, they are absolutely not getting tested for organ or vascular damage before getting this diagnosis.

There isn’t capacity to do such testing for everyone who needs it in UK NHS because the healthcare system has burned through staff with the let it rip no infection control Covid non-management strategy.

The service had been stripped of resources and staff by the last government including all our pandemic readiness. We have never had sufficient advanced scanning technology. If we got some now would probably still struggle for staff work them.

So people are getting given ME type LC diagnosis without something like organ damage or vascular damage or blood clotting dysfunction on record, and dying early.


Having ME or long COVID even if you are told you meet ME criteria are more dangerous than ME pre SARS-CoV-2. For everyone. People with pre existing ME aren’t immune to Covid and it’s absolutely everywhere.

If you have any kind of disease at all or any health condition or impairment you’re gonna be at extra risk of dying on top of your already existing risk because hospitals and GP surgeries are so much more dangerous now than they were.
 
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I’m confused. The Times report says: “However, the coroner’s recommendations are not legally enforceable and at a hearing last month Archer said that she had issued reports in other cases but that ‘nothing was done’”.

Does anyone know the legal situation? Is the “duty to respond” not a legal duty? @Valerie Eliot Smith

Thanks @Robert 1973 No, it's not.

Prevention of Future Deaths reports, like the recommendations of public inquiries, are helpful in framing policy considerations but, sadly, are not legally enforceable.

Likewise the duty to respond. It's a matter of good practice - but there are no official sanctions if a response is not received.

"Recommendations" are not mandatory, rather like NICE "guidance".
 
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