Osteoporosis (bone loss)

[Sly Saint]

Prunes good for Osteoporosis

I know that osteoporosis is a worry for some very severe patients and those who are mostly bedbound.
I saw this on some program on the telly; they claimed to have even managed to reverse the damage done so thought it might be of use.

"There has been quite a bit of research done on dried plums (aka prunes) and their effects on bone health. Some of the results have been quite impressive. One study, for example, found that subjects who had already experienced substantial bone loss were able to completely reverse these losses by eating prunes every day! Others show that eating prunes can help prevent the bone loss from occurring in the first place."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-prunes-reverse-bone-loss/

The only research I've found is this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28422064

eta:
"In a clinical study of 58 women, eating 100 grams of dried plums per day improved bone formation markers after only three months, compared to a control group served 75g of dried apples"
http://www.tbyil.com/Reverse_Osteoporosis_with_Prunes.htm

 

[Ysabelle-S]

@Sly Saint - that's interesting. I used to try and get exercise whenever I could because of the potential risk of osteoporosis but I've not been able to do as much in the last decade.

My mother is very fond of prunes. Maybe I should nab some.

 

[Trish]

I got quite excited till I read a bit further.

You left out this bit:

''The only problem is that these studies were all done in mice and involved eating prunes as 25% of the entire diet. I’ll just give you a moment to contemplate the potential impact of that.''

 

[Alvin]

Is there a mechanism provided, does it activate osteocalcin?

 

[TigerLilea]

I got quite excited till I read a bit further.

You left out this bit:

''The only problem is that these studies were all done in mice and involved eating prunes as 25% of the entire diet. I’ll just give you a moment to contemplate the potential impact of that.''

I was going to say 'don't eat too many'. Been there - done that!

 

[ladycatlover]

I was going to say 'don't eat too many'. Been there - done that!

Might be quite useful for me - could cut out the Cosmocol that I have to take every day! (For diverticulosis )

 

[Wonko]

So, in conclusion, dried apples, really, really bad for bone health, at least 58 women should stop eating them.

 

[Valentijn]

"In a clinical study of 58 women, eating 100 grams of dried plums per day improved bone formation markers after only three months, compared to a control group served 75g of dried apples"
http://www.tbyil.com/Reverse_Osteoporosis_with_Prunes.htm

The study is at http://sci-hub.io/10.1089/152460902753473471 and isn't very convincing. 20 of the 58 women dropped out, 5 of them specifically due to GI effects caused by the prunes.

The controlling of the diet was pretty poor as well, since the apple control group dropped their intake of calcium, phosphorous and potassium quite a bit. The prune group also reported increasing their calorie intake by nearly 400 calories per day. So there were some important dietary factors at play other than just prunes versus apples.

They don't seem to correct for making multiple comparisons, meaning it's likely that the difference in outcomes were due to random chance. They also never seem to say how many people were initially randomized to each group, raising the possibility that all or most of the dropouts were from the prune group.

 

[Sly Saint]

"Drugs used to treat weak bones in elderly patients suffering from osteoporosis may actually make them weaker, research suggests.

Scientists at Imperial College London examined the bone structure of hip-fracture patients who had been treated with bisphosphonates.

They found evidence the drugs were linked to microscopic cracks, making bones more fragile and prone to break."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39122541

 

[JCB]

So, in conclusion, dried apples, really, really bad for bone health, at least 58 women should stop eating them.

Perhaps they didn't eat enough apple? They only got 75g of dried fruit whereas the prunies got 100g. I though the whole point of a control group was to make such factors equal between groups. 100g of prunes is a lot, to my mind. How much is that in terms of fresh plums? I find dried fruit is only really palatable in quantities like 20 or 30g.
ETA crossed with @Valentijn post

 

[Alvin]

"Drugs used to treat weak bones in elderly patients suffering from osteoporosis may actually make them weaker, research suggests.

Scientists at Imperial College London examined the bone structure of hip-fracture patients who had been treated with bisphosphonates.

They found evidence the drugs were linked to microscopic cracks, making bones more fragile and prone to break."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39122541

This has been known for some time, in fact they seem to cause jaw fractures...
i remember reading they were approved because no better option was available, not because they work great.
They basically prevent bone resoption which should help because bone formation is impaired as people get older and the ratio becomes unbalanced. Frankly at this point we have Vitamin K2, it activates osteocalcin so with vitamin A and D it should be recommended for all seniors and bisphonates banned.

 

[Woolie]

''The only problem is that these studies were all done in mice and involved eating prunes as 25% of the entire diet. I’ll just give you a moment to contemplate the potential impact of that.''

I laughed at that at first, then realised on my current meagre food rations, it'd probably only be around 15 prunes.

 

[Little Bluestem]

i remember reading they were approved because no better option was available, not because they work great.

I think they also make the bones scans look better. It is just that the bone is brittle and prone to breaking.

A few prunes a day shouldn't hurt and might help. They contain phytonutrients similar to the much-touted ones in blueberries. A good bone building vitamin/mineral supplement would probably be better, though.

 

[Alvin]

I think they also make the bones scans look better. It is just that the bone is brittle and prone to breaking.

A few prunes a day shouldn't hurt and might help. They contain phytonutrients similar to the much-touted ones in blueberries. A good bone building vitamin/mineral supplement would probably be better, though.

I don't care how it makes things look, i care that it works for what its supposed to treat. Though that distinction is lost on many doctors.

 

[TrixieStix]

Merged thread

Will Supplements Keep Your Bones Strong?

The most recent 'People's Pharmacy' podcast is worth a listen. The first doctor they interview calls into question the usefulness of meta-analyses, and explains why he believes double-blind placebo controlled studies have been inappropriately applied to nutritional studies.

After the break they have a second doctor on who also discusses the issues with the meta-analysis/JAMA report, and problems with meta-analyses.


https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2018/10/18/show-1139-will-supplements-keep-your-bones-strong/


"In December 2017, a meta-analysis published in JAMA demonstrated no benefit from vitamin D or calcium supplementation. People taking the supplements were just as likely to break a bone as people taking placebo pills. Those on vitamin D pills were at higher risk for kidney stones, though. To make sense of this research, we talked with two experts: one, a researcher who specialized in studying bone strength and osteoporosis, and the other a leading nutrition scientist. They explain how we can make sense of the confusion. Are placebo-controlled trials the best way to learn about nutritional supplements and their value? How can you tell if your vitamin D levels are low? Are there supplements you might consider to keep your bones strong?"

 

[Trish]

I guess the only way to find out if your vitamin D is low is to have a blood test.

 

[TigerLilea]

Most doctors don't know that when you are taking Vitamin D3 supplements, you also need to be supplementing with magnesium and K2. Without at least one of those, calcium doesn't get used by bone, but instead gets pushed into the arteries.

 

[TigerLilea]

I guess the only way to find out if your vitamin D is low is to have a blood test.

Unfortunately testing for 25(OH)D is getting harder to get in countries that have gov't run health care.

 

[Agapanthus]

I got diagnosed with osteoporosis nearly 2 years ago and was really worried about it. Admittedly I am 66 and well past menopause, but for someone with ME have been reasonably active. I had taken Vit D for at least 7 years before plus magnesium most of the time. I had also had a couple of blood tests done privately (only cost about £29 in the UK) and had good results each time.

Since then I have added in other supplements including K2 and boron and collagen. I fell downstairs a year ago and landed very hard on my back on the edge of a stair and did not fracture, so hopefully the supplements are helping with the bone quality if not the density.

 

[Alvin]

Vitamin K2 plus Vitamin A and D.

Vitamin D creates Matrix GLA protein which K2 activates. But it prevents vascular plaque, not helping bone formation. However preventing future heart attack or stroke is very worthwhile.
Vitamin A creates Osteocalcin which K2 activates which leads to increased bone density.

The research is out there that this works but is at earlier stages then other research due to low funding and the fact this is newer knowledge.

Also 15 minutes of outdoor sunlight exposure if i remember correctly will create 10,000IU of Vitamin D, you can't overdose on sunlight produced Vitamin D and it costs nothing assuming you live somewhere with sunlight. Also the body stores Vitamin D though i forget how long for so supplementation can be avoided entirely if done judiciously. For people with severe ME adequate sunlight exposure may be hard to manage.