Paul Garner on Long Covid and ME/CFS - BMJ articles and other media.

[Kitty]

I think Garner has nowhere else to go. The serious researchers doesn’t take him seriously, and the terrible ones will go after him if he opposes them.

I'd say it isn't even about medicine or science or healthcare any more, it's about being a contrarian because it gets you attention. Maybe even seeing yourself as one of the disrupters, even though next to the real disrupters you'd look like an old bloke with a Boer War rifle.

There's something a bit desperate about it all. It still has the capacity to do harm, but ultimately, as you say, the horse he backed is going nowhere.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Oh I see he’s been retweeting some other divisive subjects.

I checked and yes, the other divisive subject is his transphobia because of course...

The interesting thing is in one case (ME/CFS) the patients are against treatments due to poor quality evidence, in the other case he is trying to say that patients should not be treated due to lack of quality evidence. Two contradictory positions, the only commonality is he denies the majority of patient experiences and patient preferences in both cases.

 

[MrMagoo]

For any time line seekers

 

[Hutan]

September 29 - Paul Garner writes that he is improving, that he is healing, and that the people in the self-help pacing group that he joined 12 weeks before are realistic but positive and definitely hopeful.

Four of us, all struggling with random, vicious symptoms, and finding it difficult to pace alongside family, life, and work commitments, decided to work together. We set up our own self-help pacing group twelve weeks ago: a community of practice to swap stories, share experiences, and provide mutual support.
...
We all thought we were going to get better soon, but gradually became open to the probability that it might take much longer, perhaps twelve months.
...
We also witness each other improve, and are able to point this out, which gives a tremendous boost to our collective mood.
...
We are healing, thanks to a little help from our friends.

Paul Garner and colleagues describe how a self-help pacing group has helped them manage their long covid

So, if we do a fact check of that statement from Garner posted by MrMagoo:
"Just to correct people: Mar: Covid19; Sept: thought I was ill forever with crippling fatigue, brain fog; Oct: recovered ME/CFS patient changed my beliefs, used cognitive approaches and GET, which led to my recovery; Nov: holiday."
he was writing in September, prior to the new approaches in October, that he was hopeful about recovery and was improving and healing. It doesn't stack up.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Thanks to all for unearthing the detail of the documented events.
It is clear that he recovered from PVFS in a very typical way - with a rather sudden lifting of limitation leading to a shift in mood (not the other way around).
I still have not written to Garner but may do yet.

 

[Hoopoe]

Garner may be coming from a social environment where not exhibiting values that he is now advocating for is considered shameful. This could explain why he is so motivated to show that he's not part of the group that deserves to be shamed.

 

[Hutan]

It is clear that he recovered from PVFS in a very typical way - with a rather sudden lifting of limitation leading to a shift in mood (not the other way around).

Certainly it sounds as though he recovered from PVFS in a very typical time frame of just over 6 months. But to me, from what he has written, there was a gradual recovery over time, with a few ups and downs as he pushed things a bit hard and then rested a bit. Perhaps some of his improved mood in October, if there was one, was due to the prospect, and then the reality, of a nice holiday in the sun.

Also, I don't think we have evidence of a full recovery, of Garner returning to his pre-Covid health. After looking down the barrel of Long Covid, he retired. Obviously, I can't say if he is still has some residual impact of Long Covid, but, on the evidence we have from social media, both full recovery and partial recovery are possible scenarios.

 

[Hutan]

Garner may be coming from a social environment where not exhibiting values such as a positive attitude and constantly trying to overcome oneself is considered shameful.

Isn't that pretty much everywhere?

 

[Hoopoe]

Isn't that pretty much everywhere?

Yes. It may be particularly prominent in some social circles, with harsh consequences for those failing to live according to these values.

Maybe disability and chronic illness is seen as personal failure. The words "the only disability is a bad attitude" come to mind.

In other social circles there is more understanding.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Garner may be coming from a social environment where not exhibiting values that he is now advocating for is considered shameful.

I am not so sure. Garner comes from the same social environment as I do to a large extent. He was at medical school with half my family. I think it is likely to be more a reflection of a personality or of an individual family ethos.

 

[Hoopoe]

I am not so sure. Garner comes from the same social environment as I do to a large extent. He was at medical school with half my family. I think it is likely to be more a reflection of a personality or of an individual family ethos.

There's his sister which is allegedly a CBT therapist treating CFS.

I'm sure that he is not well because people who are well don't behave like this. They are balanced, accepting of reality and don't cling to fringe ideas promising miracles. It's easier to be in denial and use self deceit to maintain superficially good mood than it is to process things and accept one's disability/vulnerability/mortality.

 

[Turtle]

September 29 - Paul Garner writes that he is improving, that he is healing, and that the people in the self-help pacing group that he joined 12 weeks before are realistic but positive and definitely hopeful.


Paul Garner and colleagues describe how a self-help pacing group has helped them manage their long covid

So, if we do a fact check of that statement from Garner posted by MrMagoo:
"Just to correct people: Mar: Covid19; Sept: thought I was ill forever with crippling fatigue, brain fog; Oct: recovered ME/CFS patient changed my beliefs, used cognitive approaches and GET, which led to my recovery; Nov: holiday."
he was writing in September, prior to the new approaches in October, that he was hopeful about recovery and was improving and healing. It doesn't stack up.

In psychological terms inconsistency can get someone diagnosed with FSD.
Making a quick income supplement from zoom conferences may be functional too.
Gives Illness gains a totally different meaning

 

[SNT Gatchaman]

So, if we do a fact check of that statement from Garner posted by MrMagoo

It is clear that he recovered from PVFS in a very typical way

He even signs that post off with "#pvs" so he himself seems to have thought it was just postviral fatigue syndrome.

 

[MrMagoo]

It’s all slightly inconsistent. Which makes it all the worse he’s using his own story as evidence.

 

[MrMagoo]

September 29 - Paul Garner writes that he is improving, that he is healing, and that the people in the self-help pacing group that he joined 12 weeks before are realistic but positive and definitely hopeful.


Paul Garner and colleagues describe how a self-help pacing group has helped them manage their long covid

So, if we do a fact check of that statement from Garner posted by MrMagoo:
"Just to correct people: Mar: Covid19; Sept: thought I was ill forever with crippling fatigue, brain fog; Oct: recovered ME/CFS patient changed my beliefs, used cognitive approaches and GET, which led to my recovery; Nov: holiday."
he was writing in September, prior to the new approaches in October, that he was hopeful about recovery and was improving and healing. It doesn't stack up.

Interesting that he gives out the contact details of the three women in the group.
ETA well, the twitter handles. It seems he is the only man, and his blog refers to “the boy” doing 5k and 5 hours of work, which is too much.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I sent Dr Garner an email.

 

[Utsikt]

Paul Garner and colleagues describe how a self-help pacing group has helped them manage their long covid

Interesting to see that Linn Järte, one of the people in the group, was a co-author of this that apparently got PEM right:

https://www.s4me.info/threads/recommendations-for-the-recognition-diagnosis-management-of-patients-with-post-covid-19-condition-long-covid-2021-nurek-et-al.20137/

Her Twitter is also explicitly pro-masking and includes e.g. a retweet of a critique of the recent Kumar text book travesty.

 

[Utsikt]

I sent Dr Garner an email.

Would love to be a fly on that wall! I hope he takes the message well..

 

[bobbler]

Interesting to see that Linn Järte, one of the people in the group, was a co-author of this that apparently got PEM right:

https://www.s4me.info/threads/recommendations-for-the-recognition-diagnosis-management-of-patients-with-post-covid-19-condition-long-covid-2021-nurek-et-al.20137/

Her Twitter is also explicitly pro-masking and includes e.g. a retweet of a critique of the recent Kumar text book travesty.

I'm not a big twitter person but had a look. Aw gawd I wanted to put the link in without the whole post coming up and included a screenshot in case twitter disappears etc. but now have duplicates and not very well today to work out what the fix is

I agree and she has some interesting stuff including:





I've posted that last one because even tho it is a reposting it struck a chord and the discussion was quite interesting:

 

[MrMagoo]

I liked Järte and Iulia’s twitter feeds, didn’t look at the third lady.