PEM discussion thread - post-exertional malaise

Which presumably confirms just how subjective the whole thing is?
Allow me to pile on. That PEM is difficult to predict -- because it is complicated with multiple factors -- doesn't have mean it is subjective. When people couldn't predict weather, they thought it was subject to God's whim and prayed. Now we predict weather, often 7 days out with amazing accuracy.

People in severe/moderate stage are like ISO 256000 film. They are sensitive to all kinds of signals and noises making it hard for them to make out the picture. People in mild/recovering stages, with their sensitivity lowered to 3000 or less, have better luck. I for example have "prediction" column in my activity log and my TSLD (time spent lying down) is usually within 1 hour of the prediction. How I feel in the morning often turns out wrong and TSLD tracks the prediction instead of how I feel in the morning.
 
Responding to deleted post saying that calories are inherently an estimation, and not necessarily an indicator of molecular mechanisms.

You could be missing the point by focusing too much on molecular level. You can view exertion, or damage from it, at macro level simply as something that you need recovery from. And the damage could be modeled as a function of Metabolic Equivalent of Task (cal/time) which is the standard measure for intensity of activity.
 
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Sorry if I have missed it, but how do you calculate your prediction?
At the recovery stage I'm in now, I don't need to look back too far to predict my fatigue level; I can predict by what I did today and still be fairly accurate. (In the first pic, you see that the red row that is out of whack from the prediction which constitutes a crash). Before, however, I had to look back 3 days prior for the total of 4 days of accumulation (d4 in the second pic from 2015). I was less successful back then even with the aid of s/w.
 
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@poetinsf is this a recovery stage or predicting and staying within your threshold and adding a little 'wait and see' prediction.
I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but I predict my fatigue level (in terms of TSLD or time spent lying down) and I usually try to stay below 2 hours or less. But I don't always stick to it; I regularly do more (and predict higher fatigue), like going on a biking or taking 20,000 steps in NYC. I pay the price, but consequence is obviously not as devastating now as it used to be. Back in 2015, I was spending 7-8 hours lying down and tried to stay below 5 on my subjective scale. (5 used to mean that I was able to do the dishes back then).
 
Thanks for the pictures @poetinsf. Can you explain a bit more how you calculate the prediction?
It's probably a whole separate topic. I've been postponing it till I get it to a publishable shape. I'll have to restore it to working form, deposit it in GitHub or something with a paper explaining the model, so that others can test it. It's probably no more than a meaningless hand-waving till then. In a gist though, I compute the "stress" at any given moment by adding up the cumulative effect of calorie expenditure (exponentially aged according to the half-life) and then "damage" for working against that stress. (Stress level goes up and down with activity/rest, but the damages pile up). 4 days' worth damages are then added up to make the forecast.

If you are well enough, the activity log could be enough to estimate the "damage". But that's not going to apply to the majority of the patients because most of them are too sensitive and the estimates are too crude. It also takes some "ear training", to get good at estimating the activity level. I estimate the activity level on an exponential scale. 30 minutes of slow walk equals 5, for example. 2x8 pushups in the evening pushes up the level to 6. Do twice as much, it is 7 and so on. Then the activity level and how well I feel today predicts how I'm going to feel tomorrow. It's more of an experience-based art than science.

I've also fiddled with using MET table rather than relying on fitbit. Fitbit can only discern about half a dozen activities, mostly for healthy people, like walking, biking or skiing. It needs to discern dozens ADLs, like washing dishes, for it to be truly useful for ME/CFS. Just relying on wrist motion and heart rate is too crude and inaccurate. You can manually configure dozens of ADLs in MET table and then use those values to compute the damage for activities from the activity log. But that's too complex for average people, let alone ME/CFS patients suffering brain fog. So I left that just as a proof of concept.
 
Thanks @poetinsf. Clearly predicting PEM/a crash is really complicated, but I agree it's a puzzle no more complicated than weather forecasting. If we could crack it, if we could make fairly good predictions, I think the model would give us some clues about the pathology. It just takes a lot of data and insight.

What do you think about my idea that adrenalin may be contributing to PEM - not necessarily because adrenaline levels are unusual, but because of downstream impacts which at some point are not normal? Do you think that novelty or a time sensitive activity can initially improve capacity but contribute to PEM? Same for caffeine, nicotine, other stimulants, things that are exciting in a good or bad way, being upright, having an infection? Do you think those sorts of things that increase adrenalin might account for the times when your normal calculations of the impact of activity level don't give a good prediction?
 
@poetinsf, it is interesting to read of your approach to predicting PEM. I am currently struggling to hold enough information to be sure I understand what you say, welcome finding out more. (Sorry, what follows has become something of a ramble.)

When I spent a year recording all my activity in fifteen minute blocks, it helped me understand some of my patterns and highlighted some of the things I needed to consider when predicting PEM. It also helped me focus on looking for reasons why previous activity failed for me as a predictor. The big thing to come out of this for me was identifying some of my food intolerances. This was some twenty years ago when wearable devices were less common, and certainly now being more severely impaired I would not have the capacity to devote the amount of energy/time to doing something like this without it interfering with self care activities.

Also when I undertook this I was not aware of orthostatic issues, which now helps me in my informal subjective guesstimates for predicting future PEM. And I still have some unexpected fluctuation that does not seem to related to previous activity, diet or time spent upright, though for me novelty of an activity and concurrent sensory load seem also relevant. So your attempt to quantify effort is particularly interesting.

Your process of producing a combined score gives a figure that makes testing predictions more practical, but does it also make it harder for an individual to tease out individual components which needs to happen if they are to change behaviour to minimise triggering PEM. From my previous experience I would want it to be possible to break down any combined score into contributing components. If I was following on from my previous approach I would want to separate out previous activity, diet, sensory load, time upright and cognitive demands. So that you have the simple visual of a spike in one being followed predictably but a trough in activity being indicative of some form of causation.

We need a good observational study of activity patterns in people with ME/CFS that could then serve as a baseline for looking at what then results in triggering PEM or in eliminating as much as possible triggering overall reduction in activity levels. Producing predictive models, then means we can test the hypotheses it is based on.

Having a relapsing and remitting form of ME/CFS I experience periods of increasing activity levels and reducing activity levels that subjectively seem out of my control. All my relapses, even when associated with a new viral infection, were preceded by increases in activity, but I can not unambiguously conclude a causal relationships as I can not rule out some underlying fluctuation in a biological disease process unrelated to my activity levels, given by definition any relapse is preceded by a remission which inherently involves increased activity.

If we discover the underlying biological processes and have a treatment this becomes redundant, but until then being able quantify the relationship between activity levels/types and the future course of your condition, enables us to be clearer in advising on rest, pacing, etc. which in turn means new patients don’t have to spend the years or in my case decades learning how to manage their activity to minimise PEM and/or deterioration.

For most people ongoing activity monitoring would be an unhelpfully burden, but withe the right model and appropriate wearable devices, intermittent auditing for a week or a fortnight might be practical.
 
Your process of producing a combined score gives a figure that makes testing predictions more practical, but does it also make it harder for an individual to tease out individual components which needs to happen if they are to change behaviour to minimise triggering PEM. From my previous experience I would want it to be possible to break down any combined score into contributing components. If I was following on from my previous approach I would want to separate out previous activity, diet, sensory load, time upright and cognitive demands. So that you have the simple visual of a spike in one being followed predictably but a trough in activity being indicative of some form of causation.
Yeah, it's really hard to build a model with all the variables like diet, sensory stimuli and others. Add to that the tolerance variability like you have, it would be next to impossible. No wonder some people think that the PEM triggers are subjective.

I'm dealing with the physical exertion only and treating all others as noises. That will limit the predictive power of the model, but it still sticks out according to my data. I personally think physical exertion is the biggest component for majority of people, at least for those who are not severely ill. For other variables, all I can think of is to record them like you seem to be already doing so that you can look back and guess what triggered PEM. In my experience, just explaining does not lead to ability to predict though, no matter how many times you do it. You have to actually predict, and fail most of the times, to eventually develop the "ear" for it.
 
Looking at multiple variables is a bit of a bootstrap operation, but once you start identifying the relevant variables you can control for them. Now I am managing my food intolerances they can be ignored in any calculation. If I was trying now to quantify activity to predict PEM I would need a measure of time spent upright as orthostatic intolerance has become much more significant over the last ten years when overall I am much worse.

However, your tool is something that could be used by others who may need to tweak it for the aspects important to them, such as OI or sensory intolerances.
 
Responding to deleted post asking if poetinsf has any insights regarding adrenaline.

I think I've said this before somewhere, but adrenergic or dopaminergic environment seems to protect me from PEM. Whatever wakes my brain up, including pseudoephedrine and caffeine, seems to help. I remember back in 2012 of having to walk fast with luggage to make the connecting flight. The flight attendants met us at the gate and shoved us through what seems to be about 1km between terminals. I was darn sure that I'd keel over the next day. I didn't. It happened over and over since then.

That said, the response could be different from patient to patient. I have heard of similar experiences from only a few patients; it certainly is not universal by any means. But I keep thinking about norepinephrine/dopamine level being correlated to symptom severity in Walitt's deep phenotyping paper. The level varied in healthy controls as well, but it had no effect on them. So maybe it's possible that norepinephrine/dopamine act like fire retardant against PEM fire. Just something I've been musing about for a while.
 
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Responding to deleted post about high accuracy in predicting symptoms when doing analysis with regression analysis with various lifestyle variables.

0.85 is absolutely phenomenal. I was getting more like 10-40% range on average. But that was still a lot compared to other model including heart rates and plain calorie expenditures. They sometimes gave me negative correlation, lol. That's why I said it stuck out like a sore thumb despite the low correlation. The inaccuracies of fitbit minute-by-minute data contributed to the low score, I'm sure. I was able to raise it to as high as 80% by removing outliers, but that felt like cheating because there usually were more than a few outliers.

The performance of model is likely to vary from people to people. We need to get the model out there for other people to try and see how it performs. A few weeks is probably too short though. I ran mine for almost 2 years, both on monthly basis and in rolling windows. Some windows would come up occasionally with higher correlations of 50% or more. But they were fairly consistent in 10-40% range while other models were about zero.
 
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Thanks @poetinsf. Clearly predicting PEM/a crash is really complicated, but I agree it's a puzzle no more complicated than weather forecasting. If we could crack it, if we could make fairly good predictions, I think the model would give us some clues about the pathology. It just takes a lot of data and insight.
Yep, that's what I've been saying: a black box approach can provide clues about what's inside the box.

Do you think that novelty or a time sensitive activity can initially improve capacity but contribute to PEM?
Actually, that hasn't been my experience. When I'm on the road living in my car, my tolerance boost stays up indefinitely. It's when I return home that I crash before returning to steady state. My guess is that some brain chemicals are protecting me by downregulate brain immune system. Then, when that chemical dips after returning, the bottom falls off. I think it's a similar process as post-trip blue. Dopamine dips when people return from trips and they feel depressed for a few days.

Same for caffeine, nicotine, other stimulants, things that are exciting in a good or bad way, being upright, having an infection?
3.5mg of nicotine boosts me without any adverse effect the next day. Caffeine and Sudafed also works for me without adverse effect. But 7mg nicotine did crash me badly the next day. So, maybe it's about the dosage? Higher dosage could be depleting the natural chemicals leading to crash.
 
If I was trying now to quantify activity to predict PEM I would need a measure of time spent upright as orthostatic intolerance has become much more significant over the last ten years when overall I am much worse.
I use 24hr timer that I got from Amazon for $3. I have one next to my bed, and I punch it whenever I lie down/get up. I'm hoping to automate it with fitbit or other wearables.

However, your tool is something that could be used by others who may need to tweak it for the aspects important to them, such as OI or sensory intolerances.
Plug-ins sound like a good idea.
 
I think I've said this before somewhere, but adrenergic or dopaminergic environment seems to protect me from PEM. Whatever wakes my brain up, including pseudoephedrine and caffeine, seems to help.
And I've said the same - excitement, novelty, stimulants, even stress seem to protect me from PEM. At least in the short term and until it doesn't. When my son returned to school a couple of years into the illness, we thought he was going well for a while, he was happy and enjoying things, but he was in fact slowly physically deteriorating. That process took months but led to him being bedbound for a short time and much worse than he had been prior to the school return for a long time.

I can't think what the mechanism could be, what could create that initial protection but only for a certain amount of time.

I do like the idea of interferons accounting for PEM symptoms, and activated t-cells producing the interferons. And adrenalin being one of a number of things that activates t-cells. Perhaps there is some mechanism running counter to that can make adrenalin release protective, but that mechanism is progressively worn down with constant use?

Sorry, I'm not expressing that well.
 
I do like the idea of interferons accounting for PEM symptoms, and activated t-cells producing the interferons. And adrenalin being one of a number of things that activates t-cells.

It's an interesting paradox.

One way out might be that we are dealing with 'no' T cells rather than 'yes' T cells. In more technical speak we may be dealing with T cells that have variously been called suppressor or regulatory or other things.

There are a number of things that suggest that ME/CFS is about activating an off switch where diseases with a more established immune basis tend to be about activating an on switch. The most obvious is that there is so little to find in terms of inflammation or damage.

The immune system is full of paradoxes. TGF beta mostly switches off inflammation but one way it does it is to down-regulate MHC Class I molecules like HLA-B27 that interact with T cells. But absence of MHC Class I can also be pro-inflammatory because if NK cells do not see it with their killing inhibitory receptors they will kill the cell and likely generate inflammation. Which may be why ankylosing spondylitis is a disease that affects the 5 places where you would expect TGF beta to be most active - sites of tissue tension.
 
I can't think what the mechanism could be, what could create that initial protection but only for a certain amount of time.
I think that would be explained by any agent with a moderate "immunosuppressive" effect (I put this in quotes since what counts as immunosuppressive in what particular context is not straightforward by any means). Same as in the NSAID example--it's possible for a systemic response to be suppressed but only if things are at a manageable level to begin with. Otherwise it's like using a tiny fire extinguisher for a raging house fire. Especially if the underlying effect is a positive feedback loop, like the type I interferon response.

Additionally, I think that the interaction between interferon and adrenaline would extend well beyond T cells in potentially interesting ways. I don't know of anyone who has looked at the effect of adrenaline on tissue-specific interferon production but it's something I've been interested in
 
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