The Concept of ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Diagnostic Criteria and Naming Discussions' started by Jonathan Edwards, Oct 15, 2024 at 11:10 AM.

  1. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Not all of them. That is the bare reality. Physicians with opposite assumptions managed to create a situation where Maeve had no chance it seems to me. Unfortunately it seems likely that we will never know exactly what went on but I have had accounts from several people directly involved.
     
  2. Nightsong

    Nightsong Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    You would know far better than I but perhaps some of those inclusions, and the holistic-multidisciplinary stuff, were necessary to get it across the line. If those compromises were necessary I think they would be worth it - to have rejected compromise would have left CG53 in place, which would have been a disaster for us. A guideline that both Jo Daniels and Willie Weir both signed up to was one hell of an achievement.
    The view I formed, having listened to about 3/4 of the testimony - admittedly an very incomplete view - is that she died because the team involved in caring for her refused to escalate to more intensive artificial nutritional interventions, had an exaggerated view of the risks of so doing, and refused to accommodate her condition in a way that she was able to tolerate. That was based on belief but certainly not the belief that she had a progressive neurological disease.

    I'm not sure quite what Strain's views were - I was too ill to listen in on the day he gave his testimony so I can't say - but he wasn't making decisions on feeding or directly responsible for her care & most of the others that I heard give evidence all gave away hints of viewing ME/CFS as a functional illness. I think it was said that she only had a single home visit from Weir & although he wrote to those involved in her care it seemed that the RD&E physicians largely disregarded his suggestions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2024 at 11:20 PM
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  3. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It seems to me the article is trying to draw a useful line in the sand between the history and now, but also call bullshit on the pretence that we understand what's going on.

    It's important to underline that doctors can diagnose it, discuss it, and be genuinely helpful to people trying to manage it without knowing anything about causation.
     
  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Very hard to see how this was a genuine concern of his, he's been absurdly wrong most of his career but he is not delusional. He is very calculated and purposeful in what he does, and this is the model he has sold, and the model that PACE used. And the model that IAPT used, with similar outcomes. In fact this is basically the only possible outcome of the biopsychosocial model, he's definitely smart enough to know this. Sounds more like CYAing. Even if just in a private letter, at best some odd twisted rationalization from someone who knows they caused horrible things but can't bring himself to let go of all the privilege it brought him.
     
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  5. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    No question this was all a blundering catastrophe, sadly being repeated right now. However I don't think Maeve or her family thought she had a progressive and inevitably fatal neurological disease. I think Maeve simply realised the futility of her situation, that without support to live she would die. This was solely due to the failure of the specialists to meaningfully attempt to stop her starving and dehydrating to death.

    She tried very hard but was powerless when the only people that could help her continue to live refused to. She kept saying, and wrote, that she wanted to eat and to live, and at the end she said she and her family had tried their hardest.

    There was much post hoc rationalisation and obfuscation at the inquest, but let's say it genuinely was thought to be a progressive neurological disease. ALS is a progressive and devastating neurological disease, but people are supported to live as long as they can, treated for pneumonia - sometimes even living a long lifespan and winning many awards in theoretical physics and featuring in Star Trek.

    (And palliative care is available for progressive neurological diseases, though it was denied Maeve.)
     
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  6. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry if I am too late with this, but it seemed to me when I read it that inclusion of 'treatment' in that first sentence is needed to make the second sentence true. Rvallee expanded on the reasons. So:
    "Worryingly, not only has the psychological medicine approach failed but its proponents have shown no recognition of their lack of understanding of the illness or its effective treatment, or indeed even of research methodology (White, Anomalies paper). This is hard to square with the fact that there is no evidence for any reduction in the prevalence of the illness and people are still dying of avoidable dehydration and starvation."

    I agree with the comments about focussing more on what we want people involved in the care of people with ME/CFS to be able to do (and/or what we don't want them to do), rather than criticising specific professions. Not everyone will need an OT, just as not everyone will need a physiotherapist or a psychologist. But, my understanding is that someone who is bedbound could well benefit from a well-trained physiotherapist who can help minimise the risk of medical complications of immobility. (If I'm wrong in that, someone needs to tell me, because I have been recommending that clinical guidelines suggest that people who are bed bound are given advice on how to prevent complications from immobility.) And someone who is having a really hard time dealing with their situation may benefit from time with a psychologist or counsellor who has a lot of insight into the impact of debilitating chronic conditions and how to best cope. We all know that some nurses and doctors can do plenty of harm as a result of accepting 'this is the way it has always been done' too. Psychology is a very broad field, and there are certainly some branches of it that involve critical thinking and attention to evidence, even if the aim of some of that thinking is only to sell more of something.


    Re 'Conceptualising ME/CFS'
    I agree, I don't think 'conceptualising' is an improvement. It makes it sound as though this is something happening now, and, by implication, an innovation by the author. Whereas 'the concept' makes ME/CFS sound more like a real discrete and current entity, albeit something of a placeholder. I'm actually not super keen on 'concept' either. Synonyms include 'belief', 'conviction', 'opinion', 'conceit'. I mean, I don't think people would write about 'The concept of malaria', for example. It signals that ME/CFS does not yet qualify to be a disease, that instead it is a drawing of a circle around a collection of symptoms and the people who have them and that there is uncertainty about whether that circle is describing something discrete. But, the first paragraph sets things up well, as an answer to the question of why the concept of ME/CFS is justified. And perhaps, until we know more, 'concept' is the best we can do.
     
  7. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ok, fair points about "conceptualising".

    Maybe: "The Medical Concept of ME/CFS".
     
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  8. AliceLily

    AliceLily Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Hutan Just for myself. I remember when I was at my sickest I was too sick to talk or sit for long. I was very distressed that someone would make me do things that would make my terrible situation worse. The less involved the better it was for me.

    If anyone remembers having to go to A@E in a weak sick state for something other than ME, you will remember how hard it was when you are not left alone, instead you are having to answer the same questions over and over to different hospital staff. You just want to be left alone because you are not up to it and with severer ME it is even worse and with payback.
     
  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd add something like 'of the two components contributing to the acronym' to the end of the first sentence. It's just, for readers who don't think about ME/CFS and ME and CFS every day, it might not be immediately clear what the 'neither' refers to. Noting that there are two components helps to make clear what the 'both' in the second sentence is referring to.

    I'm not sure about 'the perceptions of people with ME/CFS' here. I don't think the perceptions of people with ME/CFS have had much to do with what the disease was named, including the ME name. I guess over the years many people with ME/CFS have been keen on the name of ME for various reasons, including that the only alternative was the trivialising 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'. The compliment to people with ME/CFS for their contributions to research seems shoehorned into a sentence that also seems to apportion some blame for the name myalgic encephalomyelitis to the faulty perceptions of people with ME/CFS. I'd prefer to see just something like
    "The ME/CFS acronym, rather than trying to find perfect words, reflects a desire for a pragmatic clinical term that recognises but also transcends the historical medical views that we have moved on from."
     
  10. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks AliceLily. I agree that we don't want a troupe of people lining up to provide their professional expertise regardless of whether it is wanted or needed. A core team could be just a consultant and a specialist nurse.

    It's just that I want a person with ME/CFS who is having a really hard time emotionally to have the same rights as a person with MS to get access to someone with specific expertise in helping people with a debilitating disease talk through the issues and find ways to cope. And, if I was the carer of someone completely bedbound and unable to sit up, I think I would appreciate advice specific to severe ME/CFS on how to prevent bed sores and deep vein thrombosis and muscle contractures. Maybe all that can be delivered by a specialist nurse with some good pamphlets, but maybe some more specific practical help might also be useful. I'd be interested to know more about what people with severe ME/CFS have found useful to prevent bad consequences from prolonged immobility - I'll set up a separate thread if we don't already have one.

    Here: Severe ME/CFS: preventing the physical consequences of prolonged immobility
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2024 at 5:51 AM
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  11. SNT Gatchaman

    SNT Gatchaman Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If you do want to keep a reference to the contributions of pwME, how about "the insights of people with ME/CFS..."?

    "... from which on we have moved" ;):laugh: ("Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which we will not put." -- not Churchill)
     
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  12. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I agree with this. I wonder if an alternative phrasing could be something like:

    The ME/CFS acronym, rather than trying to find perfect words, reflects a desire for a pragmatic clinical term that recognises, but also transcends, historical medical views that the illness is mainly one of fatigue, and the desire of people with ME/CFS not to suffer the burden of a trivialising name for their devastating disease. It signifies not only what we have moved on from, but also that we have moved on.
     
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