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UK: Disability benefits (ESA and PIP) - news and updates 2021 - 2022
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Wonko
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Nevertheless the system is working as intended or else why have the various exposes been ignored, why are so few 'suicides' related to benefits even acknowledged let alone investigated, let alone have any action taken to change things.
Why is the system deliberately set up to only process aspects of disability/illness in total isolation from the effects they, combined with other aspects of health issues in the same person, cause. In short why are they deliberately choosing to not assess the disability/health of the people they are supposed to be assessing the health and disability of.
The system is working as it was designed to, other than, from a certain perspective, far too many people get benefits on the basis of being disabled.
Or else why do they keep making the system more unfair in a seemly deliberate attempt to further restrict numbers of successful claimants..
Why is the system deliberately set up to only process aspects of disability/illness in total isolation from the effects they, combined with other aspects of health issues in the same person, cause. In short why are they deliberately choosing to not assess the disability/health of the people they are supposed to be assessing the health and disability of.
The system is working as it was designed to, other than, from a certain perspective, far too many people get benefits on the basis of being disabled.
Or else why do they keep making the system more unfair in a seemly deliberate attempt to further restrict numbers of successful claimants..
Invisible Woman
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Given the paltry amounts disability benefits payout I doubt it's cost saving.
I would really love to see the figures. Exactly how much does each ESA & PIP assessment cost? Especially, if you add on the cost of tribunals. Was it really cheaper to outsource it?
Why is it so difficult to find out what benefits you are actually eligible to apply for? Where is the proof that the default "computer says no" position saves money?
I don't know how accurate it is but I vaguely recall that an estimated 0.1% of the total payout by the benefit system was paid out in fraudulent claims. That includes housing benefits, pensions and so on. So the amount of fraudulently claimed via ESA & PIP would be substantially less.
Claimants are on such low incomes anyway, it's hardly as though they'll be salting an extra cash away under their mattresses. No, the chances are they'll be spending it on things that will.improve their overall health and quality of life such as better food, maybe more heating, possibly things that might reduce their use of the health service. I'm sure many would use it to fund some care and so aid employment in their local communities.
Given they lose such a high percentage of tribunals so have to pay the benefits and the cost of taking the case to tribunal, the approach of taking so many cases as far as tribunal can only be cost effective if seen in terms of how many people it deters from claiming or deters from fighting cases through to tribunal.
Simbindi
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
The HCPs are aessssed by their supervisor (and employer). They get disciplined if they make too many awards to claimants. If they allow more awards than 'the average', all their reports are reviewed and outcomes adjusted.
Invisible Woman
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I know, it's a complete travesty, the the reverse of how the system should work.
An expensive travesty. I'm not convinced it wouldn't be cheaper to treat disability claimants more honestly and fairly.
Is it though? I should be eligible for PIP and admittedly haven't tried to claim again. Yet. I am reconsidering that though. I am fortunate that we can afford not to have it. The vast majority of people who claim are claiming because they have no choice.
I think it's a great money spinning system but who oversees the figures? Is it really saving money or costing the public purse more than is saved?
It's like when they promise they put more money in to the welfare state (was it May would who did this last time?) & people assume that either welfare claimants get more, or that they pay out to more claimants, or both. There's another possibility though - it gets spent on outsourcing companies.
How much does each WCA cost? What's the average cost when you take tribunals into account? How all have those costs changed year on year since the DWP stopped doing assessments in house?
With some experience of recording ahmm this will have far reaching effects. The tribunal said they knew the assessors lied with no prompting. But then lied themselves in their reasoning and failed to supply the mandated paperwork. We also discovered that the assessor lied - (not new news) when compared to their report.
But much to the claimants surprise what they and their assistant both thought had been clearly stated and covered had not actually been said at all. This was not a technical failure, but belatedly assumed to be stress causing both client and helper to blank out generating a false recollection.
What does this mean for the base assessment accuracy if the client is cognitively unable to present sufficiently? As I understand, very few are excused the assessment process ME or otherwise.
By generating a record the assessor would be able or at least be wise to review the assessment. Perhaps this is why DWP has resisted Recordings as review would be too time consuming, costly and of course damming.
Once the state lies to a claimant they will never again believe the state or its representatives including other state arms. So reputational damage and distrust. Anti vax and Covid stats being recent examples.
But much to the claimants surprise what they and their assistant both thought had been clearly stated and covered had not actually been said at all. This was not a technical failure, but belatedly assumed to be stress causing both client and helper to blank out generating a false recollection.
What does this mean for the base assessment accuracy if the client is cognitively unable to present sufficiently? As I understand, very few are excused the assessment process ME or otherwise.
By generating a record the assessor would be able or at least be wise to review the assessment. Perhaps this is why DWP has resisted Recordings as review would be too time consuming, costly and of course damming.
Once the state lies to a claimant they will never again believe the state or its representatives including other state arms. So reputational damage and distrust. Anti vax and Covid stats being recent examples.
Exactly.
Ineffectual complaints policy such as the police,press,medical, healthcare Professionals? Political, social workers, judiciary... in comparison to the the legal professions punitive policy. I believe DWP have granted Crown immunity to the two assessment companies so the sad deaths due to their ineptitude result in lessons learned only.
The assessor feels above the law and the tribunal being civil Law cannot compel them to account despite knowing the assessment is flawed.
However, individual police officers are now facing civil action after IOPC failure see Crimbodge on YouTube. I cannot recall any individual having immunity, thinking of the soldiers particularly in N Ireland and the MI5 killings policy. The governments response to these two examples being in sharp contrast to the DWPs impunity over failings.
The assessor knowingly making a false statement Or arriving at an untenable conclusion compared to the Official recording is then aiding the assessment company to deprive permanently the claimant of funds. Aiding Fraud perhaps? This is then a criminal case rather than civil against the assessor. Would the DWP / Atos confer immunity to assessors, but not police and retired military? Where would it stop?
The official two part recording represents a sea change, presentable at tribunal unlike the covert version. But I have read a tribunal has accepted a covert version anyway, why not if DWP present covert recordings as part of their fraud investigations? Goose /Gander. Even this paragraph opens interesting possibilities regards who is responsible if the assessment was flawed initially backed by the recording.
All this seems Delightfully reasonable, just wished I had played attention at school and selected another career. Oh and no ME brain please.
The assessor feels above the law and the tribunal being civil Law cannot compel them to account despite knowing the assessment is flawed.
However, individual police officers are now facing civil action after IOPC failure see Crimbodge on YouTube. I cannot recall any individual having immunity, thinking of the soldiers particularly in N Ireland and the MI5 killings policy. The governments response to these two examples being in sharp contrast to the DWPs impunity over failings.
The assessor knowingly making a false statement Or arriving at an untenable conclusion compared to the Official recording is then aiding the assessment company to deprive permanently the claimant of funds. Aiding Fraud perhaps? This is then a criminal case rather than civil against the assessor. Would the DWP / Atos confer immunity to assessors, but not police and retired military? Where would it stop?
The official two part recording represents a sea change, presentable at tribunal unlike the covert version. But I have read a tribunal has accepted a covert version anyway, why not if DWP present covert recordings as part of their fraud investigations? Goose /Gander. Even this paragraph opens interesting possibilities regards who is responsible if the assessment was flawed initially backed by the recording.
All this seems Delightfully reasonable, just wished I had played attention at school and selected another career. Oh and no ME brain please.
Getting back to the outsourcing problem: it's known in my field that certain companies tendering for the work put together lists of well-qualified people who they contractually agree to use for doing the work, then after they've won the contract on the basis of those people they farm out the work to other, less-qualified, people instead and pay them a lower rate, thereby making a nice profit. I guess nobody checks up on them regularly to confirm that they're actually sticking to the terms of the contract.
A member has asked me to post this article on a website called Vice World News:
"How the Government Spies on Welfare Claimants"
"How the Government Spies on Welfare Claimants"
https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3g9n5/how-the-government-spies-on-welfare-claimants?
So how did investigators know Ellen would attend the event?
We all leak data unintentionally and need to consider our dwelling as having a moat. All that crosses that moat both in and out is data to somebody and has value. The “all” relates to both physical and electronic so written forms, letters, utility usage and curtains open / closed disclose activities open to collection and interpretation.
15 years ago the tribunal lay member made reference to my bank account regarding my mother’s attendance allowance and purchases. Last year they used Street view and google earth data implying my house was too large and garden massive... 3 bed room and the fence line is minimal from the airborne picture. A two year old low end landrover not on Mobility was a problem. Yet pip is not a means tested benefit. The linked article and my experience suggests otherwise.
As I spend a lot of time horizontal watching YouTube and browsing I have developed a vicarious interest in firearms. External of the house / prior life I have no history of this interest. I was surprised to be quizzed about my hobbies “like shooting” really? So either browsing history or Alexa is leaking information or they assumed / lucky guess due to my isolated rural location and their incorrect use of google earth data.
PWME are really good DWP targets with our energy envelope, non visual disability, variability and pem all being unseen during any investigation and data collection work. Yet we are so proud when we achieve or have a better day we celebrate and publicise providing detrimental data.
We must wise up and look how our data can viewed and employed. Posting at 03.00 provides data. My sleep is poor tonight.
We all leak data unintentionally and need to consider our dwelling as having a moat. All that crosses that moat both in and out is data to somebody and has value. The “all” relates to both physical and electronic so written forms, letters, utility usage and curtains open / closed disclose activities open to collection and interpretation.
15 years ago the tribunal lay member made reference to my bank account regarding my mother’s attendance allowance and purchases. Last year they used Street view and google earth data implying my house was too large and garden massive... 3 bed room and the fence line is minimal from the airborne picture. A two year old low end landrover not on Mobility was a problem. Yet pip is not a means tested benefit. The linked article and my experience suggests otherwise.
As I spend a lot of time horizontal watching YouTube and browsing I have developed a vicarious interest in firearms. External of the house / prior life I have no history of this interest. I was surprised to be quizzed about my hobbies “like shooting” really? So either browsing history or Alexa is leaking information or they assumed / lucky guess due to my isolated rural location and their incorrect use of google earth data.
PWME are really good DWP targets with our energy envelope, non visual disability, variability and pem all being unseen during any investigation and data collection work. Yet we are so proud when we achieve or have a better day we celebrate and publicise providing detrimental data.
We must wise up and look how our data can viewed and employed. Posting at 03.00 provides data. My sleep is poor tonight.
I haven't seen it yet. Does it give options for unable to work due to illness/disability?
Sly Saint
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
yes, but it continues asking questions about employment afterwards.
Invisible Woman
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Exactly. Also you can still be working and eligible to claim PIP.
Just because you have difficulty with mobility doesn't mean that you can't go on a flight somewhere. It just means that you might need more support in the lead up to, during and after the journey. That support might be more expensive and you might have to spend more on the journey. A wheelchair appropriate taxi rather than the bus, extra legroom during the flight a night or two at a nearby hotel to rest up before continuing the journey.
There is no legislation that states that you aren't entitled to go abroad just because you are on benefits. Maybe someone else contributed to the cost of the trip?
As far as I know there's nothing to prevent you spending your benefit on a flutter on the dogs or horses rather than food if that's what you want to do. It might not be sensible but that's the person's own choice.
Invisible Woman
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
I contacted someone who wrote a blog about the use of smart home devices and how they can make life so much easier for people living with chronic illness. It was a good piece but I wrote to ask if they would update it with a note that people should always be aware of security.
Make sure their wifi has a strong password. Make sure any internet enabled device that can be password protected is password protected with a strong password. Never leave the password as the manufacturer's default (if they have one).
Nope, this person thought I was a bit of a technophobe and possibly paranoid. Even though I explained how easy it can be to gather an awful lot of data from very simple daily life.
InitialConditions
Senior Member (Voting Rights)
Merged thread
Does anyone have the main Benefits & Work PIP guide document that they can share with me? My membership expired in April and I'd like to get hold of this guide.
Many thanks!
Does anyone have the main Benefits & Work PIP guide document that they can share with me? My membership expired in April and I'd like to get hold of this guide.
Many thanks!
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