Wired Magazine: The Painful Truth About Long Covid by Alan Levinovitz, 2026

Those examples aren't proof of anything. Anyone can send a picture or video to someone on social media. Anyone who knows a public figure can attest that they routinely receive all manner of unwanted, bizarre and malicious messages, sometimes from fixated individuals, on social media; such is the nature, unfortunately, of our age.

But a serious threat of death or physical harm from someone who is verifiably a patient, of the kind that would occasion the serious interest of the police or of the judiciary; of the kind that would result in criminal convictions? If there were any such cases these people would shout about them from the rooftops; they seem desperately to wish to be seen as downtrodden victims of patient "activism".
 
Nightsong said:
Those examples aren't proof of anything. Anyone can send a picture or video to someone on social media. Anyone who knows a public figure can attest that they routinely receive all manner of unwanted, bizarre and malicious messages, sometimes from fixated individuals, on social media; such is the nature, unfortunately, of our age.

But a serious threat of death or physical harm from someone who is verifiably a patient, of the kind that would occasion the serious interest of the police or of the judiciary; of the kind that would result in criminal convictions? If there were any such cases these people would shout about them from the rooftops; they seem desperately to wish to be seen as downtrodden victims of patient "activism".
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This barrister says:
To secure a conviction, the prosecution must prove all of the elements of the offence to the requisite standard, that being beyond reasonable doubt. So, the prosecution must show that:

1. Threat Was Made- The threat can be verbal, written, or even implied through actions (e.g., brandishing a weapon).

2. Fear of the Threat Being Carried Out- The victim must have reasonably believed that the threat could be acted upon.

3. Intent of the Accused- The person making the threat must intend to cause fear, not just use reckless language.

If they fail in any of these then the accused is entitled to a not guilty verdict.
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Sending an image of a weapon ticks #1. I think it’s reasonable to think that it might be carried out, so that’s #2. It’s difficult to get around that the sender probably intended to cause fear, so that’s #3.

The fact that these are common today, doesn’t make them less of an issue.
 
A picture isn't proof of anything. There are probably many places on the internet, not accessible by seach engines, where these pictures could be found. And anyone can claim to have received death threats by an anonymous person.

In any case, even if it were true, it is repugnant to use this to try and score points against a whole group in public. It is smearing by association with unconfirmed rumours.
 
Nightsong said:
But a serious threat of death or physical harm from someone who is verifiably a patient, of the kind that would occasion the serious interest of the police or of the judiciary; of the kind that would result in criminal convictions? If there were any such cases these people would shout about them from the rooftops; they seem desperately to wish to be seen as downtrodden victims of patient "activism".
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My memory of going in to this in the past is that there was one documented case that did occasion interest from the police and that there was legal constraint on any public release of information. It seems to me appropriate that no prosecution occurred. I would expect a psychiatrist to consider abuse and threats a normal part of dealing with the 'psychosocial' aspects of their service delivery. What was reprehensible was capitalising on an event that could not be verified because of the legal constraint and portraying it both as being related to criticism of bad science, and something to be awarded a prize for tolerating.
 
dave30th said:
Valerie Eliot Smith saw a video in 2011 that had been sent to Wessely, and she said it could easily be interpreted as a death threat. I believe her on that one. Now, that doesn't mean the whole thing wasn't exaggerated and hyped etc etc. But I count that as at least one actual "death threat." I also wouldn't be surprised if there were others. But that's the only one I know that's been confirmed.
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Edited:

The video in question was put on Youtube and was up on Youtube for 6 - 8 weeks. I don't recall any claim that it 'was sent to Wessely'. The video was NOT removed from Youtube 'almost straight away' due to it's content, as was claimed by the person who sent a copy of it to Valerie Elliot Smith.

I watched the video a few times at the time it was posted on Youtube, and do not recall any death threat.
The video was a skillful montage of still images, with a very moving spoken commentary.

The video was in the style of an Art Film.

It spoke to me deeply. Personally, I am Very Lucky to be alive now. Such was the grotesque behavior of Drs, during the first (and worst) 5 years I was sick with ME

It was clear the person who made the film had been harmed very badly by the BPS mistreatment, by abusive treatment by certain Drs, and left physically damaged and very traumatised. Where the film maker blew it was by including a photo of Mengele.

EDIT ADD In my best memory, any interpretation of any part of the commentary in that video as a 'Death threat' was no more threatening than the assertion of "You will Pay" to BPS psyches around 2011, that was later cited as a supposed 'death threat'.

.
 
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“My latest feature for @WIRED is about long Covid. It focuses on extremely sick patients who believe they recovered, partially or fully, with the help of "mind-body therapies."But it is ALSO about why featuring these patients leads to the kind of reaction you see here:


omMhX57a_normal.jpg


Taylor Lorenz

@TaylorLorenz
Replying to @WIRED
This is an absolutely garbage article attempting to relaunder a bunch of pseudoscience. The fact that WIRED would publish something as ignorant as this is really disturbing.”
 
Lou B Lou said:
Where the film maker blew it was by including a photo of Mengele.
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Doctors have let people with ME/CFS starve to death instead of admitting that they might actually be sick. Some have been tortured in locked facilities and hospitals by denying them blinds, sleeping masks, ear defenders, and other accommodations including appropriate toileting and sleeping when they need to, as well as starving them to get them to walk or sit up, as well as forcing them to ingest food they can’t digest. Others have been denied essential pain relief or other appropriate medications. Countless suicides have been committed in part due to the abuse of healthcare professionals and others involved.

There are researchers that are invoking the concept of social sadism when describing the treatment of people with ME/CFS.

And of course there is this:

«First they came for the Communists»
- Fiona Fox comparing people with ME/CFS to Nazis
 
Utsikt said:
Doctors have let people with ME/CFS starve to death instead of admitting that they might actually be sick. Some have been tortured in locked facilities and hospitals by denying them blinds, sleeping masks, ear defenders, and other accommodations including appropriate toileting and sleeping when they need to, as well as starving them to get them to walk or sit up, as well as forcing them to ingest food they can’t digest. Others have been denied essential pain relief or other appropriate medications. Countless suicides have been committed in part due to the abuse of healthcare professionals and others involved.

There are researchers that are invoking the concept of social sadism when describing the treatment of people with ME/CFS.

And of course there is this:

«First they came for the Communists»
- Fiona Fox comparing people with ME/CFS to Nazis
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THIS !
 
Please Note - Mods, if you think you have to remove this post then so be it.

I'm a person of Jewish heritage (my father). I was made totally aware as a kid that an entire swathe of my family no longer exists (Poland).

What I find totally revolting is that the child of a Holocaust Survivor kick started and established his stellar career by gaslighting, denigrating, and persecuting a population of (majority) severely sick women and kids.

.
(In relation to my last post on this thread, on the video made by a person with ME - the video cited as supposedly so very denigratory and threatening to SW)

.
 
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Lou B Lou said:
The video in question was put on Youtube and was up on Youtube for 6 - 8 weeks. I don't recall any claim that it 'was sent to Wessely'.
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Perhaps it wasn't sent to Wessely but was posted--I thought it had been sent. Or maybe there was another video. However, if Valerie as a barrister saw a video and regarded it as tantamount or interpretable as a death threat to Wessely, I accept her professional view on that. That doesn't mean the person didn't have horrible experiences or anything like that. Of course people in extremis might do things they shouldn't or would think better of at other times. And obviously using that or any similar instances, if any others occurred, to smear an entire group of patients and deflect completely justified criticism, is despicable. But the idea of "death threats" has often been dismissed out of hand as 100% manufactured. And I think that's not the best idea.
 
Utsikt said:
Info regarding some of the alleged harassment against the BPS folks can be found here
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yes, that was a terrific piece by Steve Lubet. I loved how he took the ship metaphor and used it to bust Simon. I discussed that with him afterwards--how useful it is to take people's metaphors and turn them around to make a counter-argument. I did that when White complained that using their protocol measures to compare with the final outcomes they produced was comparing apples and pears. (In the US we say apples and oranges, not pears. Whatever.) And I pointed out, Exactly, the PACE-ies got 5 million pounds to get pears at the market, and then they came back with apples. And then they're upset that no one is taking their word for it that the pears were rotten and that the apples were better.
 
dave30th said:
Perhaps it wasn't sent to Wessely but was posted--I thought it had been sent. Or maybe there was another video. However, if Valerie as a barrister saw a video and regarded it as tantamount or interpretable as a death threat to Wessely, I accept her professional view on that. That doesn't mean the person didn't have horrible experiences or anything like that. Of course people in extremis might do things they shouldn't or would think better of at other times. And obviously using that or any similar instances, if any others occurred, to smear an entire group of patients and deflect completely justified criticism, is despicable. But the idea of "death threats" has often been dismissed out of hand as 100% manufactured. And I think that's not the best idea.
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Sorry David -

But some of us have been so much at the sharp end of SW-incited BPS persecution

- We are lucky to be still alive to testify what was done to us

- Really - dismissing the testimonies of actually persecuted patients as
"doing things they shouldn't or would think better of at other times"
.... is missing the points by a million miles.

People with ME 'in extremis' too often end up Dead.

Too many of us have very nearly ended up Dead. Dead Dead Dead.

I do think that you and George Monbiot and VAS give *Far too much* credibility to the lurid victim playing stories of the people who have been widely exposed as manipulators, fiction narrative purveyors, and actual liars....at the expense of pwME.

.
 
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Lou B Lou said:
I do think that you and George Monbiot and VAS give *Far too much* credibility to the lurid victim playing stories of the people who have been widely exposed as manipulators, fiction narrative purveyors, and actual liars....at the expense of pwME.
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I disagree. Well, I can't speak for George or Valerie. But I really don't accept the idea that I've given credibility to these folks or dismissed anyone's testimony. I'm sorry if what I've said created that impression.

I mean, if saying that I believe Valerie's legal judgement that a video could be perceived as a death threat constitutes giving "far too much credibilty," then I guess I'm guilty of that. All I've said was that there was one incident that, in Valerie's view, was tantamount to a death threat, and that I don't exclude the possibility that there might be other incidents. That is not mutually exclusive with recognizing how much people have suffered or recognizing the abominable behavior of Wessely etc.

I don't really understand the point about dismissing people's testimony. Whose testimony did I dismiss? What I wrote wasn't a dismissal of anyone's suffering. it was an acknowledgement that when people are in deep pain and suffering, some might send messages that could be interpreted as threats. I didn't say that occurred--I said it wouldn't surprise me if it had. To say categorically that this has never occurred is just not possible. We're in an insane period with social media etc so nothing would surprise me. I don't see how acknowledging that is dismissing people's testimony. I didn't say people haven't been treated horribly. Of course they have.
 
On “threats”
In today’s modern internet age, people receive threats and harassment all the time. That doesn’t make it alright.
Also, in today’s modern internet age, there is phenomenon of “receipts, or it didn’t happen” there are many accounts (Dawn Butler MP is one) who regularly share screenshots of abuse they receive to highlight the problem.

we don’t need to deny anyone’s claims of harassment and abuse, but they are expected to be able to evidence their claims.
 
MrMagoo said:
In today’s modern internet age, people receive threats and harassment all the time.
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I certainly have gotten them. And yes, if people claim they're getting threats, they should be able to document them. ADDED: In some cases I've removed comments from VB that seemed to or clearly constituted threats. Certainly Zachary Grin has received some horribly threatening messages. Not to defend Zachary Grin in any way!!! But I also can't condone the messages, at least one of which appeared as a comment on Virology Blog. And that was absolutely a very scary and horrible bit of language from someone calling themselves "FUCK YOU ZACH." Now of course it's impossible to know if that is really an ME/CFS patient, as Zachary says. But it was on my blog. I'd forgotten about it when I wrote my previous post. You can see it here:
 
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I understand why someone might feel out of their mind with rage at Zachary Grin. I mean, he harasses me!!! But the issue here is, Is that a death threat? Seems to me like it obviously is--or at least, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Grin to view it that way, as he did.
 
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