Wired Magazine: The Painful Truth About Long Covid by Alan Levinovitz, 2026

To be fair, I probably overstated in reaching for rhetorical flair. My apologies. What he actually said:

"PACE is radioactive in this community, understandably, but I don't think it "proves" anything about these interventions either. But...I also believe it won't matter if an excellent trial comes out."

I interpreted that to mean he accepts that PACE is not the 'excellent trial' people would need in order to support these claims. But I think I was reading too much into 'radioactive' and 'understandably'. What I think he clearly said is he does not think PACE “proves” anything about these interventions. But you interacted with him much more, so I can't really go beyond what he wrote here.

For me, if you showed me some amazing, well run trial, where 90% of patients with diagnosed long term MECFS that met clear criteria were actually moved from fully disabled by their illness to back-to-normal, I'd run out and spend my three easy payments of $199.

Disclosure: I've tried brain retraining, because I'm not a researcher, just a desperate patient trying to get better. I carefully followed the directions and it did…absolutely nothing.

On the flipside, what evidence would Alan require for him to say, “Okay, I guess brain retraining was a nice-sounding idea but turned out not to be helpful for those suffering from this illness”?

So he keeps asking what it would take for us to accept it, but never seems to say what it would take for him to realize he was chasing a mirage. Honestly, for me, what it would take is very simple: it curing me. I’m not a researcher, so selfishly I care a lot about n=1.

But he won't actually engage on the contents of his article for some reason. Instead:

"Look at yourselves. So cocky in the lion's den. I'm here alone. And that's all you've got? And yet...why should I be surprised. It's the rhetorical defense mechanisms that are so typical of the kind of communities I study.
Tough love. I've taken it for over a week. I've learned a lot!"

I'd be curious: what has he learned, and what are the 'kind of communities' he studies, as I thought he studied pseudoscience?

But this 'community' seems to be mostly saying: why is our strong skepticism toward expensive commercial recovery programs being treated as evidence of some horrible community pathology, rather than as the normal response to unproven and pseudoscientific medical claims?

I've seen the same brain retraining claims on 'millionaire mindset' videos. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He is looking at this forum as was described as a “humanities voyeur”. We cannot say anything which can change his mind, nor can he say anything which will change the mind of one person here. But that is not all - he is interested in”insular communities” belief systems, group dynamics.

He seems to treat us not only as an experiment, a human zoo, but also a group held together by a belief, and conforming with that - and he is acting as if we are one.
Rather than people with an interest in science and ME.
I think that’s why everything is “you are like this/you think like that/I know how and what you think” because he sees us as sociology project he is evaluating.

Which is weird because for all the FLDS documentaries, channels, interviews I have watched, shouting “you’re all wrong, you don’t know the truth, you can’t see how blinkered you are” at the members doesn’t really encourage them to think outside the box, let alone put on jeans, buy a latte and leave.
 
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There are a couple of key quotes from the Wired article by Alan Levinovitz that I think illustrate why he's enticed by anecdotes about brain retraining - and I get it, anecdotes about rituximab were enticing to me until science laid that to rest - one is about placebo and the other is about trial design.
This post has been copied to the thread about the placebo effect: https://s4me.info/threads/placebo-effect-discussion-thread.30370/

If you’re still here @Learningandlistening I’d recommend reading that thread. You might be surprised by some of the discussion.
 
There are a couple of key quotes from the Wired article by Alan Levinovitz that I think illustrate why he's enticed by anecdotes about brain retraining - and I get it, anecdotes about rituximab were enticing to me until science laid that to rest - one is about placebo and the other is about trial design.

1. Placebo

What people are really referring to is the placebo response, that encompasses all of the reasons people improve in trials that cannot be attributed to the intervention they received, because just as many people not receiving the intervention reported improvement too. See @Woolie's reading list on the topic.

In that list, Woolie shared a blog by Novella 2017 that explains:


Lilienfeld et al. 2014 (also in Woolie's list) has a nice table listing 26 "causes of spurious therapeutic effectiveness":

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The line immediately preceding the one about placebo quoted above is:

I think this may be another point where wires are getting crossed. There are two things going on here:
(1) believing that patients have improved, and
(2) believing that patients have improved due to the intervention to which they attribute their improvement.

I have no problem believing that patients have improved, and am delighted for anyone who experiences this. But when you've read the anecdotes and the unblinded trials and then see the blinded trial (e.g. rituximab), or watched friends improving with one thing, and then getting worse again, and then improving with another thing, and then getting worse again, or people attributing their improvement to something that others attribute their deterioration to, or all the other scenarios you get used to after decades of the illness, then you learn to just do (1) and let good science illuminate how likely (2) is.


2. Trial design

From the Wired article by Alan Levinovitz:


No, you're trying to not stack the odds in your favour, so that the only way you will get a positive result is if the intervention is effective. You're not trying to demonstrate that your intervention is effective, you're trying to test whether it is effective or not. If an intervention is only effective when delivered by a particular therapist, then the intervention is not effective. Instead, the therapist is effective in ways unrelated to the intervention. A truly effective therapy will come out as effective.

The challenge for Donnino is try to overcome the fundamental bias introduced by not blinding in a trial assessed with patient-reported outcomes. From Hróbjartsson et al. 2014 (on Woolie's list):



Can Donnino come up with a sham brain retraining that will be delivered with the same belief and confidence as "real" brain retraining, and bolster it with blinded assessor-reported outcomes or objective outcomes over an extended period of time?

In a reply to a comment underneath the Wired article, AL wrote:

That "bewildering variety" is what points to a probable lack of treatment-specific effects. We've done all that in ME/CFS already. So far, in ME/CFS, it's all placebo response, or small improvements in patient-reported outcomes that don't last.

It feels appropriate to end with an anecdote. This is from a recent Guardian article which we discussed here by Hermione Hoby who has relapsing-remitting ME/CFS and did brain retraining during a relapse [bolding added]:
Brief reply: Donnino designed his trial with three arms specifically to address the sham brain retraining question. When his results come out, we should discuss. I predict that if they are positive, people will be completely unwilling to accept them, no matter what the trial design or what the data says. If they are not positive, I'll say, "That's good evidence against what I believed."

Just wanted people to know I am following things as best I can, but don't have a ton of time to craft long replies right now. Will try to in a week or so, but can't make any promises.
 
So the claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with biomedical treatment used as well are cases of misattribution.

But the claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with no biomedical treatment to use as well are evidence that brain retraining works for these conditions.

So what happens when the second category gets a new biomedical treatment that works. If someone uses brain retraining as well, will it be misatrribution, or evidence that brain retraining works?

I guess the point of his claim would be that there will never be a biomedical treatment for ME/CFS and LC because brain retraining working proves it's not a biomedical disease.

Isn't that kind of what the CBT/GET people claim too - that ME/CFS is caused by fear of exercise and deconditoning. Or the pacing up people who believe they can reverse dysregulation by behavioural changes.

The mind boggles. Each psychobehavioural treatement comes with its pseudoscientific explanation. And it all boils down to ME/CFS being psychosomatic and reversible by changing thinking and / or behaviour.

This is so tiresome. There is no evidence any of it works.
I tried to respond to your previous concerns when I answered them as best I could, here:

https://s4me.info/threads/wired-mag...lan-levinovitz-2026.50481/page-27#post-699093

To answer this briefly (and thank you to the poster who found my response to the cancer question):

1. Yes, claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with *clear and highly efficacious* biomedical treatment used as well are cases of misattribution.

2. No, you've got it a bit wrong. It's NOT that "the claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with no biomedical treatment to use as well are evidence that brain retraining works for these conditions." I'm saying THIS: "Claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases where BIOMEDICAL TREATMENTS THAT FAIL BLINDED TRIALS ALSO SEEM TO BE EFFECTIVE OUTSIDE OF THOSE TRIALS are evidence that the (ritual? who knows?) mechanisms of 'brain retraining' is effective in both cases."

3. I've never argued “there will never be a biomedical treatment” for ME/CFS. For one, I could imagine something analogous to a GLP-1 for a subset of ME/CFS. That would be great. It would not prove that "mind-body" treatments didn’t work in the past, just as GLP-1s don't prove "diets don't work." It would simply help people diet!

But you're right that I don’t think there will be a disease-targeting intervention that shows all (or the majority) of people diagnosed with ME/CFS are actually suffering from some underlying viral/bacterial persistence, or any pathophysiology that is unaffectable through “mind-body” approaches. That would be the equivalent of a medication that resolved obesity by adjusting people’s dysfunctional metabolisms, so they could continue eating the same amount, but start losing weight.

4. This is just an additional point, in my efforts to get people to overcome their resistance to whatever they think BPS or "mind-body" means. Addiction is a physiological state. It results in physiological symptoms. But there are some people — it's rare, but it happens — who kick their addictions overnight, by hitting rock bottom, say when they miss their child's wedding because they were seeking drugs, or get in a drunk driving accident with their kid in the back. There's also a much larger number of people who kick their addictions through nothing more than the "magic" of joining a community and engaging in dialogue. Lots of addicts try these interventions and fail. They try different versions.

Addiction is a physiological state. It is not a "choice". It is not the addict's "fault." Most people who try interventions for addiction, whether biomedical or sociocultural (Alcoholics Anonymous) don't succeed. None of that is proof that AA never works. Nor is it proof that when AA does work, the addiction was "psychogenic" or "all in someone's head." These categories are simply ridiculous.

Anyways, like I said, I really value you all. I'm trying to address a bunch of stuff. And I don't have a ton of time. Will try to be back in a week.
 
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I tried to respond to your previous concerns when I answered them as best I could, here:

https://s4me.info/threads/wired-mag...lan-levinovitz-2026.50481/page-27#post-699093

To answer this briefly (and thank you to the poster who found my response to the cancer question):

1. Yes, claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with *clear and highly efficacious* biomedical treatment used as well are cases of misattribution.

2. No, you've got it a bit wrong. It's NOT that "the claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases with no biomedical treatment to use as well are evidence that brain retraining works for these conditions." I'm saying THIS: "Claims of cures using brain retraining in diseases where BIOMEDICAL TREATMENTS THAT FAIL BLINDED TRIALS ALSO SEEM TO BE EFFECTIVE OUTSIDE OF THOSE TRIALS are evidence that the (ritual? who knows?) mechanisms of 'brain retraining' is effective in both cases."

3. I've never argued “there will never be a biomedical treatment” for ME/CFS. For one, I could imagine something analogous to a GLP-1 for a subset of ME/CFS. That would be great. It would not prove that "mind-body" treatments didn’t work in the past, just as GLP-1s don't prove "diets don't work." It would simply help people diet!

But you're right that I don’t think there will be a disease-targeting intervention that shows ME/CFS is actually caused by viral persistence, or mitochondrial dysfunction, or some kind of underlying pathophysiology that is unaffectable through “mind-body” approaches. That would be the equivalent of a medication that resolved obesity by adjusting people’s dysfunctional metabolisms, so they could continue eating the same amount, but start losing weight.

4. This is just an additional point, in my efforts to get people to overcome their resistance to whatever they think BPS or "mind-body" means. Addiction is a physiological state. It results in physiological symptoms. But there are some people — it's rare, but it happens — who kick their addictions overnight, by hitting rock bottom, say when they miss their child's wedding because they were seeking drugs, or get in a drunk driving accident with their kid in the back. There's also a much larger number of people who kick their addictions through nothing more than the "magic" of joining a community and engaging in dialogue. Lots of addicts try these interventions and fail. They try different versions.

Addiction is a physiological state. It is not a "choice". It is not the addict's "fault." Most people who try interventions for addiction, whether biomedical or sociocultural (Alcoholics Anonymous) don't succeed. None of that is proof that AA never works. Nor is it proof that when AA does work, the addiction was "psychogenic" or "all in someone's head." These categories are simply ridiculous.

Anyways, like I said, I really value you all. I'm trying to address a bunch of stuff. And I don't have a ton of time. Will try to be back in a week.
And my last reply: I think it's possible — likely — that there are subsets of ME/CFS (and long Covid, which, let's not forget, was the actual topic of my WIRED piece). One may not respond to "mind-body" because there's some kind of underlying pathophysiology that can't. Another might. Sort of like celiac and non-celiac gluten sensitivity — the former is category that identifies something very different from the latter. Separating the two out is essential, and, I believe, impossible given the current sociocultural climate and the science.

This might be the most important point of all, both in the article, and in general when it comes to what I care about. How can we sort out these subsets? And why is it that no one thinks, or wants to think, that they are in the subset that might be amenable to a "ritual" intervention? Is it because they tried it once, or twice, or ten times, and it failed? That, it seems to me, is bad logic.
 
When his results come out, we should discuss. I predict that if they are positive, people will be completely unwilling to accept them, no matter what the trial design or what the data says.
If the trial comes out and there are issues in the interpretation, should members just not mention them? Criticisms are made about studies of all subject matter here. If Donnino describes the trial as a success, does that mean that the results are "positive"? Or is it if you decide the results are positive?

In many trial reports that gets posted here, the authors describe the findings as suggesting or demonstrating efficacy. Here are some where the abstracts explicitly say the interventions are effective:
Were S4ME members "unwilling to accept" the positive results of these trials, in your opinion?

It's a pointless prediction, except as a way to pre-emptively make the forum seem stubborn and have a "told ya so" ready for when the results come out. How about we wait for the results to come out so we can see what the results even are. If S4ME members raise any concerns, you or the authors can explain why exactly those concerns are just nitpicking or plain wrong.

Better yet, maybe there's no need to wait. I assume the prediction is based on what you've seen on the forum, so maybe you can point to where members have already been unwilling to accept positive results of a trial.
 
If the trial comes out and there are issues in the interpretation, should members just not mention them? Criticisms are made about studies of all subject matter here. If Donnino describes the trial as a success, does that mean that the results are "positive"? Or is it if you decide the results are positive?

In many trial reports that gets posted here, the authors describe the findings as suggesting or demonstrating efficacy. Here are some where the abstracts explicitly say the interventions are effective:
Were S4ME members "unwilling to accept" the positive results of these trials, in your opinion?

It's a pointless prediction, except as a way to pre-emptively make the forum seem stubborn and have a "told ya so" ready for when the results come out. How about we wait for the results to come out so we can see what the results even are. If S4ME members raise any concerns, you or the authors can explain why exactly those issues are just nitpicking or plain wrong.

Better yet, maybe there's no need to wait. I assume the prediction is based on what you've seen on the forum, so maybe you can point to where members have already been unwilling to accept positive results of a trial
Fair enough! It was an annoying way to phrase it. Let's wait until the trial is out. But it's worth noting he did address the sham brain retraining idea.
 
Why do you think this wonderful mind-body healing is inappropriate in something as serious as cancer?
He would likely respond similarly to a previous reply about this:
Second, the *vast* majority of people who claim they have been "miraculously cured" of cancer by a quack intervention are *also* doing regular proven interventions like chemo and surgery. Somehow people who use the cancer analogy seem unaware of this phenomenon. The error in believing one has been healed of cancer by wheatgrass shots is one of misattribution: it was actually the chemo and surgery. (There's lots of reasons people don't want to credit those interventions, but that's a different story.) Cases of spontaneously remitting cancer — like spontaneously remitting ALS — are vanishingly rare, and these days almost impossible to study because everyone with cancer gets treated. In the cases they don't? They die. There aren't thousands of online testimonials of people that eschewed cancer treatment and miraculously recovered, for the simple reason it doesn't happen. The people that opt for wheatgrass and prayer only? They almost invariably die.

With ME/CFS there is no "chemo" or "surgery," so the *only* misattributions that are possible in the cases I've described are: (a) spontaneous remission, which these people are very, very familiar with, having experienced it themselves, or (b) some other unproven "biomedical" protocol.

In fact there are "thousands of testimonials of people who eschewed cancer treatment (or were deemed untreatable) and miraculously recovered". There truly are people who don't receive western medical treatment and yet survive their cancers for years or even recover - especially certain kinds. see here. It does happen. And it has been studied.

Here's a cancer recovery story I have handy from another thread on the forum. A recovered cancer survivor who teaches people to cure their ME/CFS by eating well and releasing their repressed emotions tells us about her new assistant:

Here's a bit of another Facebook post:
Screen Shot 2018-12-03 at 9.39.06 PM.png


.....
Screen Shot 2018-12-03 at 9.39.26 PM.png

So, what are we to make of Jenny, whose surgeon had nothing more to offer her, embarking on her ourney of healing?

Perhaps she miraculously recovered from cancer as a result of 'uncovering events in this lifetime and previous lifetimes where she had experienced trauma and suppressed emotion' and 'dancing'? I guess it's possible, just as I can't completely rule out that those things or some other version of a placebo treatment might cure someone with ME/CFS.

But, perhaps she just recovered, and her thoughts and exercise had nothing to do with the recovery. There are some reports of infections triggering a response that cures the cancer. Perhaps she was not really cured. Perhaps she didn't actually have Stage 3C cancer.

If those sorts of possibilities might be true, why could they not also be for people claiming a mind body therapy cured their ME/CFS diagnosis? (And, we need to remember, the majority of people with ME/CFS symptoms recover in the first few years. Natural recovery at that stage is the most likely outcome. Paul Garner was already recovering in that window of time when he received the phone call of enlightenment. )

The idea that 'mind body techniques help cancer' have harmed people with cancer, just has they have harmed people with ME/CFS:
Many of these ideas were promoted by a former Yale surgeon, a popular author who advocated special cancer patient support groups in his books. The importance of a positive attitude was stressed, as was the idea that disease could spring from unmet emotional needs. This belief anguished many cancer patients, who assumed responsibility for getting cancer because of an imperfect emotional status. Among alternative modalities, the mind/body approach has been especially persistent over time, possibly in part because it resonates with the American notion of rugged individualism.[4]

In fact, looking around the literature, it is clear that there is a great deal of concern about the rise of mind body therapy misinformation around cancer - this from a study on TikTok, noting how alternative therapies frequently use a testimonial style advertisement.
the declining health of the information environment around cancer and its treatment.

People who promote mind body therapies for illnesses with no currently known effective treatments such as ME/CFS are also encouraging the acceptance of the therapies for illnesses where modern medicine could actually help. They help create a public who are unable to discriminate between useful therapies and make believe, who are willing fodder for charlatans. The abandonment of careful thinking about evidence, the rise of the recovery anecdote being all the evidence that is needed, this hurts us all.
 
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And my last reply: I think it's possible — likely — that there are subsets of ME/CFS (and long Covid, which, let's not forget, was the actual topic of my WIRED piece). One may not respond to "mind-body" because there's some kind of underlying pathophysiology that can't. Another might. Sort of like celiac and non-celiac gluten sensitivity — the former is category that identifies something very different from the latter. Separating the two out is essential, and, I believe, impossible given the current sociocultural climate and the science.

This might be the most important point of all, both in the article, and in general when it comes to what I care about. How can we sort out these subsets? And why is it that no one thinks, or wants to think, that they are in the subset that might be amenable to a "ritual" intervention? Is it because they tried it once, or twice, or ten times, and it failed? That, it seems to me, is bad logic.
I think a lot of people here did believe they might be in such a subset for a significant chunk of their early illness. And for a lot of people, there were months or years of it not helping. And then there was also getting a more realistic outlook on what the scientific evidence shows compared to how the interventions are marketed.

ME/CFS is a weird as hell illness in that doing pretty much anything makes it worse. So every activity has to be chosen wisely and exertion can not be wasted. For those in which nothing in the "mind-body" space worked previously, it becomes a learned decision to not risk our well-being on something that is unlikely to work. It's not bad logic to stop doing something that you tried in 10 different ways which did not help and did hurt.

As I said in a previous post, I fear pressure to do such interventions against my will. It's been 15 years of me having ME/CFS, and I still don't feel that the people closest to me understand what the negative effects of exertion actually are for me. It's another weird as hell and frustrating thing about ME/CFS: the symptoms are very difficult to understand, in quality and degree, to those who don't have it. So I'm constantly on guard for when people with more power than me might decide they know what's best for me based on an inaccurate idea of what I'm actually experiencing.

How can we sort out the subsets, if they do exist? Good question. I don't know. I assume your inclination based on what we know now might be to do so by erring on the side of assuming anyone with long COVID might be in such a subset and to try the interventions just in case. Let's assume the anecdotes suggest it works in 1% of people with long COVID. Is that enough to prescribe it for 100% of people with long COVID? As with all interventions, there are risks and benefits, so are the potential risks for 99% worth potential benefits for 1%? I'm just making up numbers since we don't have any real numbers, but any recommendations need to take the harms into account too.

I'd say a good place to start is showing the interventions even work with undeniably large effects in objective outcomes in a trial. If the results are actually "positive", it won't matter much what S4ME says about it. The media runs away with barely significant study results all the time. If it really works, they'll never stop talking about it.
 
How can we sort out these subsets? And why is it that no one thinks, or wants to think, that they are in the subset that might be amenable to a "ritual" intervention? Is it because they tried it once, or twice, or ten times, and it failed? That, it seems to me, is bad logic.
This is going to sound snarky but I don't mean it that way: Is it your opinion that someone with ME/CFS should keep taking brain retraining courses over and over in case it works for them? How many years of this seems reasonable to you? Decades?

I ask because I think a decent number of pwME *are* sort of endlessly trying things in the hopes of at least an improvement or the regaining of some quality of life. The lustre of brain-retraining wears off after a few years, but regular old meditation is popular. We're skeptical not just because we've tried it and it failed, but also because if some placebo, mind-based or social intervention was all it took... well, those of us who can are currently trying personalized versions of those things. Does it really only work if I get a new therapist or send 300$ to a website covered in clip art lotus flowers?

Ironically, one of the most psychologically painful aspects of this illness is the experience of trying so hard to get better, failing over and over, while the outside world thinks "well... maybe they just haven't tried in exactly the right way yet. Or maybe they have a mental block." And then they describe like the first mental block any thoughtful person who seriously wanted to get well would think of themselves.

I predict that if they are positive, people will be completely unwilling to accept them, no matter what the trial design or what the data says.
Like forestglip, I'd try anything that had good evidence of working. Every single activity and experience in life I enjoy is profoundly limited by this illness.
 
Brief reply: Donnino designed his trial with three arms specifically to address the sham brain retraining question. When his results come out, we should discuss. I predict that if they are positive, people will be completely unwilling to accept them, no matter what the trial design or what the data says. If they are not positive, I'll say, "That's good evidence against what I believed."
I don't know if we have a thread for the protocol yet, but, if not, we should have a look at it.

This might be the most important point of all, both in the article, and in general when it comes to what I care about. How can we sort out these subsets? And why is it that no one thinks, or wants to think, that they are in the subset that might be amenable to a "ritual" intervention? Is it because they tried it once, or twice, or ten times, and it failed? That, it seems to me, is bad logic.
Yes, where are these subsets?

I don't think you understand @Learningandlistening, what it is like to have a fluctuating disease with symptoms that aren't visible. The fact that some people reported improvement on both the placebo and rituximab arms of the blinded rituximab trial simply shows that the illness fluctuates, and it is possible to amplify a perception of improvement with feelings of hopefulness for a while, especially when desperately wanting to be well and wanting to contribute to a successful study. It does not mean that there is definitely a subset of people who would be well if only they could think right while performing the right ritual.

So, on the one hand, if you promote a think-better therapy, you have the certainty of harming some of the participants and the ME/CFS population who do not have an illness curable by a think-better therapy - because you are suggesting that remaining ill is a choice or a failure. You have the certainty of lining the pockets of people promoting pseudoscience. You have the certainty of people losing more trust in medical professionals and society sliding towards an acceptance of all manner of pseudosciences, because if anecdotes are enough, anything can work.

On the other hand, you have the possibility of a subset of people recovering if they did the think-better therapy. The chance of that relative to the wait list, based on credible trials to date, is essentially zero.

Until there is good trial evidence that some sort of think-better therapy produces a meaningful benefit for some people, I think it is irresponsible to promote it to anyone.



Maybe the next trial will be the proof that is needed that tips the cost benefit analysis in favour of the think-better therapy. It's a refrain we have seen in the conclusion of every trial of that sort of therapy. Maybe they just need to find the right subset of people. We've seen studies of CBT where they tried to find the perfectionist subset. When that didn't work, we've seen studies where they analysed the results of the children with ME/CFS who have 'perfectionist' mothers ...

But, maybe they just need to get the better trained, nicer therapists, maybe they just need to tweak the offering, maybe they just need more research funds for another bigger study, maybe they just need to find the people who really want to be well and who don't have an incentive to remain ill, because damn, those bastards just don't want to get better....

But... maybe this next study will be the one. If it is not, I have no doubt there will be another one along soon after that. And after that, until we know the actual cause of the illness.
 
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It was an annoying way to phrase it.
Or a deliberate rhetorical trap, a shabby double-bind framing that denied a priori the possibility that critics could be right in their criticism and scepticism. Especially if they are also patients. Merely opening our mouths for anything but complete agreement made us guilty in your eyes, regardless of what we actually said.

You are asserting that because we don't accept a brain retraining type claim, in full or in part, therefore we are biased against it possibly being true.

Rubbish.

What we are strongly biased is against shitty methodology, and weak unjustified and potentially dangerous claims based on it, regardless of the flavour of the claim – biological, psychological, cultural, spiritual, whatever. As should be anybody who is claiming to be conducting robust critical analysis. Of being, dare I say, a genuine truth seeker.

We practice what we preach on that standard. For example: There were high hopes in the patient community, including here on S4ME, a while back that the early promise of Rituximab would hold up. But sadly the methodologically robust phase 3 trial by Fluge and Mella failed to bear fruit.

You know what happened then? How the patient community responded? We accepted that it had been adequately tested and had not worked out, and moved on. How does that response work with your claim of our overwhelming irrational bias in favour of biological explanations and treatments, and against psycho-behavioural-cultural-spiritual ones?

You know what else that trial robustly demonstrated? The clear substantial discrepancy between objective and self-report subjective outcome measures. Meaning that the self-report subjective measures were unreliable and highly misleading. If the reported outcome had been determined by those measures then the conclusion of the trial would have been the opposite, completely false, and done serious damage.

Do you know why we practice that standard? Because we come to understand early on that it is the only way to find actual meaningful solutions, whatever they turn out to be. That understanding is hard earned. We have paid our dues for it.

I look forward to the day brain retraining claims are subject to such rigour and honesty by its advocates. That is all we are asking for.

-----

As to our political influence: Are you seriously claiming that our mere criticisms and complaints, independent of their validity, were enough to mislead and persuade NICE, IOM, AHQR, IWIG, NHMRC, and other major medical institutions around the world, into independently abandoning robust science and make spurious findings and illegitimate recommendations in our favour? Just because we asked them to, and sold them a good sob story?

In which case you should level those charges against them, and demand an explanation, even a retraction of their reports and recommendations and their resignations in disgrace at being so easily swayed by emotion and irrationality.

Good luck with that. Do keep us informed of the outcome.

The blindingly obvious truth is that we have only the power of evidence based argument. If anybody is the political underdog in this fight (and then some) it is us, not your long reigning brain-retraining pals, in whatever guise they present their claims this month, and no matter how much they whine and posture about 'The Truth' being repressed by those nasty all-powerful, biomedically obsessed, ungrateful bastard patients who just won't bow down and accept the edicts of their brain retraining overlords without question or complaint and get better upon command.

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The idea that 'mind body techniques help cancer' have harmed people with cancer,
Steve Jobs, of Apple fame, won the cancer treatment lottery by getting a rare early diagnosis of one of the more treatable forms of pancreatic cancer, a otherwise notoriously difficult to treat group of cancers, in no small part because they are very hard to diagnose early. His diagnosis was an incidental fortuitous result of a scan for kidney stones.

But he then completely wasted that precious gift from medical science and sheer good luck by insisting on eschewing mainstream medical recommendations and pursuing 'natural alternative' treatments. Ended up regretting it deeply when he realised too late what he had done, and died at 54, potentially decades before he could have, without seeing his children grow up and leaving them fatherless.

Woo maims and kills. Willing suspension of disbelief only works in fiction. In real life it rarely delivers the goods, and the price for its many and predictable failures can be very high indeed.

How many years of this seems reasonable to you? Decades?
Not to mention how many more thousands of our already extremely limited funds?

The vast majority of us, especially long termers, are in dire financial straits, with little prospect of that changing, and indeed only likely to get worse in the deteriorating general political and economic climate of the times. We have to make very hard choices and tradeoffs, and incur potentially very high opportunity costs, with every penny we spend, every day of our lives. Wasting it on yet another piece of pseudo-medical woo is not high on that list. Or even on it at all.
 
"The intellectual community here is way ahead of any academic department I have ever worked in"

The hubris is off the charts.
Also, it's not exactly important but for some context

We have members who are active researchers (of ME/CFS), biologists in training, doctors, students, academics from the humanities and STEM fields. Math types and programmers seem to be overrepresented. I have a math PhD from a fairly fancy R1 outfit. We could probably form our own little academic department, if we could all stand up long enough to attend tea.

But of course it turns out none of these credentials signify anything important, especially in the context of a disease that can derail your life in your teens.
 
I don't know wht an AMA is, but nobody here has any obligation to turn up at a particular time to discuss a particular topic - we're scattered round the world and most of us have limited capacity, and those with jobs have limited time.

I have given up signing up to webinars when they are on live because I forget or they go on too long for me to concentrate. Let's just all contribute what we can when we can and not place any expectations on anyone else.

I appreciate that Alan Levinovitz joined us. I'm disappointed he hasn't answered any of my questions and the thread is too long for me to retrieve and repeat them.

I'll have one more go at asking something that intrigues me.

We have seen over the years a few people in academic positions writing publicly showing understanding and agreeing with the critiques of PACE and related research, and supporting biomedical research, and not engaging in the attacks on pwME accusing us all of harassment we haven't done.

And then suddenly, inexplicably, denying or rejecting their previous scientifically sound position and going all out with major publicity supporting the PACE triallists interpretation of the outcome, and publicising loudly accusations of harrassment, and declaring anecdotal stories of recovery using brain retraining methods to be not only true for the individuals, but the most important evidence that needs to be front and centre of supposedly new approaches to treating and understanding the cause of ME/CFS and Long Covid.

The most public examples I can think of are Paul Garner, and now Alan Levinovitz.
Garner's approach to challenge is to block people and shout loudly about harassment and threats. I give Levinovitz credit for not doing that - yet.

So given that you have been willing to join us here, @Learningandlistening, please can you help me to understand this odd cultural phenomenon of apparently intelligent people switching from supporting critiques of PACE to praising it, and from supporting high quality research in both biomedical and psychobehavioural fields to rejecting all that and supporting and promoting hypotheses based instead purely on anecdotes, many of them unverifiable and on online on websites run by commercial sellers of the treatment they promote.

Can you help me please? Was it the experience of a friend, or did someone contact you with persuasive information, or something you read? I would really like to understand how this happens. From your perspective, I assume you see it as seeing the light, what led you to discover the light and be persuaded? Is there something in particular that tipped the scales?
££££ follow the money .
 
I think it's possible — likely — that there are subsets of ME/CFS (and long Covid,

When an illness is defined by symptoms, it's pretty clear some percentage won't have the condition and will have something else, and that could include mental health/psychological issues. You have estimated that in 60-80% of LC cases it's psychogenic, and therefore not amenable to biomedical interventions. I'm not sure where that number comes from, but I can see why people in that subset might be helped by the kind of modalities included in mind-body programs. My assumption would be that the percentage is much, much, much smaller. But I obviously can't prove that, anymore than you can prove that it's 60-80%.

And about patients (and me) tearing apart any study that shows anything positive...I would say that proponents of rehab/CBT/exercise etc seem to accept without hesitation any study, like PACE, that purports to show benefits while overlooking often outlandish methodological issues, like claiming clinical significance based on within-group changes and not between group comparisons (Nerli et al), or having people "recovered" for key metrics at baseline. You portray these as "they said, they said" issues and fail to mention these disqualifying flaws. It is impossible to understand the anger that patients experience without accepting that nonsense has been foisted on them and used to impact clinical guidelines, as well as to portray them as "rejecting science." It is easy for me to see how people who lack that understanding might view the patient response to even more unproven treatments as unreasonable. (And I'm talking about tough and loud and vociferous criticism of the science--personal attacks and actual abuse and harassment are always out of bounds.)
 
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Also, it's not exactly important but for some context

We have members who are active researchers (of ME/CFS), biologists in training, doctors, students, academics from the humanities and STEM fields. Math types and programmers seem to be overrepresented. I have a math PhD from a fairly fancy R1 outfit. We could probably form our own little academic department, if we could all stand up long enough to attend tea.

But of course it turns out none of these credentials signify anything important, especially in the context of a disease that can derail your life in your teens.
I would add to this picture that some of the sharpest brains contributing to scientific discussions here don't have formal qualifications because their formal education was curtailed early by ME/CFS. Despite this barrier they have managed to self educate to a standard that leaves me with a couple of BSc's trailing behind.

And we have members with hugely impressive resilience, emotional intelligence, kindness and sense of humour.

We are not some strange sociological phenomenon for you to research, @Learningandlistening. I'm sad and troubled that you see us this way. And I earnestly request that you refrain from spreading misinformation about the forum. You are a member here too, after all. And our rules don't give permission for us to be research subjects.

We are simply a bit like the community you might find in and around a university, from the cleaners and secretaries and students and staff with disabilities and carers, to the students of all disciplines, to the retired alumni like me tottering around trying to be a bit helpful, to the learned, and sometimes fallible professors.

A disparate community drawn together by the common purposes of open discussion of research related to ME/CFS and related conditions, advocacy for better research and care, and mutual support among sufferers from these illnesses.

We also have members, much loved and important to hold in our thoughts, who are too sick to post here, but able occasionally to surface sufficiently to read a few posts and gain some comfort from knowing there are people on their side, fighting for better recognition of their suffering and care provision, and for higher quality research.

The fact that so many of us have posted on this thread saying we have tried multiple versions of brain training and CBT/GET, should tell you we are not a bunch of biomedical zealots. We simply want decent research that finds out what's wrong and what works. And we want honest media coverage and books that don't paint us as something we are not. Is that too much to ask?
 
a bunch of biomedical zealots

If this were a group of biomedical zealots, they would not be tearing apart most of the biomedical research. In that sphere, they seem to agree with Alan much more than they disagree! I'm glad there is a place where Alan's and patients' views overlap!

And another point. There have been a huge number of CBT/exercise/rehab studies that have been done--certainly more than have been done for mind-body approaches. But patients have been portrayed at least since PACE as anti-science fanatics who abuse researchers. I disagree strongly that any individual generating abuse represents anyone other then themselves. But let's stipulate for the moment that such abuse occurs. It obviously hasn't halted an enormous wave of CBT/exercise/rehab studies--the UVA incident notwithstanding.

So why blame patients for the paucity of research into mind-body treatments? The purported anti-science zealots have not stopped the flow of rehabilitation research. So why blame them for being responsible for stopping mind-body research? If the mind-body researchers can't accomplish what CBT/rehab researchers have--in terms of obtaining funding, getting published, etc--perhaps the fault lies with the investigators and/or the funders who don't want to fund research into this?

Many patients reject and complain about the rehab stuff as much as they reject and complain about mind-body stuff. But the rehab stuff keeps on getting funded and published. Maybe mind-body investigators need to present a more convincing case to funding bodies and journals. Blaming unhinged patients is easy.
 
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there's some kind of underlying pathophysiology ... How can we sort out these subsets?

I think @Learningandlistening is right in some basic sense here. I think that it is a valid endeavour to try to distinguish people with a psychogenic condition from those with an underlying pathophysiology.

I think ME/CFS advocates have often been dismissive of this because for decades BPS proponents have tried to psychologize the whole condition. I lay the blame mainly with them.

I think BPS proponents should acknowledge that there are with high certainty a large number of people with a underlying pathophysiology. But I also think ME/CFS advocates should acknowledge that there might be a few people who match the BPS view of the condition: Anxiety, avoidance, burnout, depression, hypochondria. I think acknowledging this would be beneficial for ME/CFS advocacy.

I have not met any people with such a psychogenic condition myself, so maybe I am all wrong. I would call them "misdiagnosed" instead of a "subset of ME/CFS". It is often said that there is a large number of people with misdiagnosed ME/CFS. But I suspect that they are far fewer than Alan and other BPS proponents may think. I just have the feeling that when people feel really bad they can get confused feelings about their health. Maybe some of those people can be helped by cognitive-behavioural techniques. I have the feeling that one reason to why the BPS perspective has managed to become so widespread is that there really are a some such people, and researchers and physicians confuse ME/CFS with underlying pathophysiology with these people.

I think if psychologists and physicians would make a genuine effort and stop to consider every unknown condition to be psychogenic it would not be so hard so sort out the people who might benefit from cognitive-behavioural techniques.
 
I think @Learningandlistening is right in some basic sense here. I think that it is a valid endeavour to try to distinguish people with a psychogenic condition from those with an underlying pathophysiology.

I think ME/CFS advocates have often been dismissive of this because for decades BPS proponents have tried to psychologize the whole condition. I lay the blame mainly with them.

I think BPS proponents should acknowledge that there are with high certainty a large number of people with a underlying pathophysiology. But I also think ME/CFS advocates should acknowledge that there might be a few people who match the BPS view of the condition: Anxiety, avoidance, burnout, depression, hypochondria. I think acknowledging this would be beneficial for ME/CFS advocacy.

I have not met any people with such a psychogenic condition myself, so maybe I am all wrong. I would call them "misdiagnosed" instead of a "subset of ME/CFS". It is often said that there is a large number of people with misdiagnosed ME/CFS. But I suspect that they are far fewer than Alan and other BPS proponents may think. I just have the feeling that when people feel really bad they can get confused feelings about their health. Maybe some of those people can be helped by cognitive-behavioural techniques. I have the feeling that one reason to why the BPS perspective has managed to become so widespread is that there really are a some such people, and researchers and physicians confuse ME/CFS with underlying pathophysiology with these people.

I think if psychologists and physicians would make a genuine effort and stop to consider every unknown condition to be psychogenic it would not be so hard so sort out the people who might benefit from cognitive-behavioural techniques.


I understand the argument, but if that's the case why were there no significant between group differences in objective or long term subjective outcomes in PACE, FINE and all the other CBT/GET clinical trials? Many of them had such wide diagnostic criteria, they were sure to pick up people with psychogenic conditions, yet no cured subgroup appeared.

Surveys of pwME who underwent CBT/GET prescribed in clinics show a very small proportion improve following CBT/GET, and much larger proportion got sicker. Maybe the improvers were spontaneous, natural fluctuations, misdiagnosed, or whatever, but that doesn't prove there is a subset who are psychogenic or who are helped by CBT/GET, any more than the anecdotes quoted and linked in the article tell us anything about the efficacy of brain retraining for a subset.
 
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