Wired Magazine: The Painful Truth About Long Covid

Did you really miss all the trials that did exactly that? Hundreds in total with odd variations and combinations of this, subsets of that, this or that mode, backwards and forwards. Everything that you claim should be done hasn't just been done, it's been done so many times that there is zero validity in doing any more. Most trials for Long Covid are some variation of this. There are people who keep track of this.

Your argument basically boils down to "why didn't people think of this super simple thing and try it?" when it has, so many times already. When doing that is obviously something everyone tries on their own before they even see a physician. This is seriously into "there is a cure for cancer but the man won't let you know about it" territory. You are talking about a model that has been so dominant for years that many countries have made it mandatory to receive disability, which is usually refused because, well, they're rehabilitated so why would they need any support?

I despair that no one seems capable of a basic lit review anymore. I mean, not just @Learningandlistening. I've seen so many researchers over the last six years going on various media outlets touting the cortisol or viral reactivation studies they're doing on LC and just thinking, seriously?! Would it kill you to spend a half hour at PubMed?! And why are grant reviewers still giving money to research that has been done to death for 40 years already?

I have long observed that people who are academics in the arts and social sciences study and write about topics such as diseases and their treatment in a very different way than scientists do.

Quite. As one who was once an aspiring academic in the humanities, coming to medical science as a patient was a very steep learning curve for this very reason. It took me a good decade to work out the difference. In the humanities, you're rewarded for novel interpretations. As long as you're not just baldly cherry picking or stating what is obviously false, it's all about squeezing some sort of innovative meaning out texts. If all you're doing is assembling a novel argument, it's then a straightforward job about collecting proofs to prove your thesis.

Except that is not how science works (or should work). Years ago when we were in the midst of some argument here about CCI or hEDS (forgive me if I can't be bothered hunting down the exact thread), we ended up in a discussion about how science works. @Jonathan Edwards was, if memory serves, paraphrasing Karl Popper, by saying that science is really the language of "no." You come up with a hypothesis and then you exhaust all the reasons for why that hypothesis is wrong before tentatively saying that it is true. This runs so counter to human nature that even most scientists struggle with this. Our natural inclination is to see what we think is a pattern and then set about establishing that it really is the pattern we think it is. That is why good scientists go to such lengths to control for this. Social science can be a middle ground between the humanities and the "hard" sciences in that it understands randomized trials, controlling for biases, the use of statistics, etc. Yet because it's usually about human behavior, social science simply cannot control for all its variables nor run the same experiment in the controlled way that one can in a particle collider or petri dish. Thus, it still often leaves us with a lot of interpretation and few objective facts.

You are arguing this to a Professor of Religion who did a doctorate at the University of Chicago Divinity School.

Ah, yes. That oldest human effort to find meaning in a world that feels incomprehensible. And our oldest system for creating narratives out of what is often just coincidence. Because "shit just happens" is too painful to accept even if it's often true. (See the Book of Job or Ecclessiastes/Koholet)

@Learningandlistening I don't know if you're still reading this thread. I salute your willingness to enter the lions den of S4ME knowing we are increasingly notorious for being a bunch of curmudgeonly pedants who are sticklers for methodologically-sound research. But don't take it personally. We're equal opportunity here. Many a biomedical researcher has left in a huff because folks here have pointed out the problems with their research. We always know the good ones, though. They're the ones who are grateful for the feedback, who stick around and do some learning and listening.

I'll be honest, I've not read your piece nor most of this thread. I've been sick for over a quarter of a century and I've already read this story so many many many times before and I have better things to do with my sparse energy. I was all in on the brain-retraining idea when I was first diagnosed. On mindfulness meditation, on reframing how I looked at my symtoms, on graded exercise/activity, on anything that would give me a sense of agency as my ability to function continued to deteriorate. Especially when I was finally forced to navigate the disability and social welfare systems. There had to be something I could do that would save me from this demeaning roulette wheel of potential government benefits. But there wasn't. I just got sicker and sicker. Accepting that there was nothing to be done felt intolerable. And I suspect that is where your piece comes from. It just feels too intolerable to accept that people can get a virus through no fault of their own and suffer so much and there's nothing to fix them. Too intolerable to accept that the people who do get better do so because of luck (the technical term is "regression to the mean") rather than some action on their part. I feel your pain there. Have felt that pain for decades now. But I'm not sure you understand the pain you are causing because you cannot sit with that discomfort. And you have indeed caused real pain. Real damage to people who are already so vulnerable. I hope you will learn and listen to that harm. Use your training in these beautiful traditions where prophets and sages and gurus and teachers and mystics have sat with that pain and suffering and often come to a similar truth: do not do to others what you would not want done to you, that when one suffers, we all do.
 
I think studies of BPS interventions are simply very difficult to do, for the same reason that studies of any intervention that might depend on therapeutic alliance are very difficult to do. Consider, as a parallel, someone who joins a lifestyle community and manages to lose a fair amount of weight with diet and exercise. They report that being in this community helped them lose weight. They had tried other communities in the past, but those didn't work. Can you study this "intervention"? Sort of, but not with a blinded trial, obviously. And the further we get from the community, the alliance with the coach, the timing of joining the community, whatever, the harder it is to study.

Utsikt already responded in post #159. But to emphasise, it's not about the blinding, it's about controlling for bias. It would be useful data if people went to a particular lifestyle community and objectively/measurably lost significant weight, controlling for as much as possible beyond diet, exercise, encouragement, green tea or whatever else was specific to that intervention. What would not be useful is if the intervention was to convince the people that they would definitely lose weight by merely manifesting their desire to do so, and then at the end of the intervention, ask them to fill in a questionnaire reporting whether they thought they'd lost weight, without ever going on the scales.

That's what BPS studies are doing. They should use objective data: actigraphy, increased employment and education participation, cancellation of disability supports. They never seem to. It's always questionnaires (that often conflate biological symptoms as somatisation), concluding that the intervention is "promising" ad infinitum and ad nauseum.

And even then! Consider this relatively recent failed trial of monoclonal antibodies, inspired by a *very* successful case control trial.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/ucsf-monoclonal-antibodies-long-covid-20323832.php

One of the patients in the trial reported recovering so dramatically — in the article — that when it was revealed she was in the placebo arm, she couldn't believe it. Was her subjective experience of remarkable improvement a coincidental natural remission? Or...is it more likely that whatever this particular woman had, it responded to being in the placebo arm of the trial? I believe the latter is far more likely, which tells us something about how that woman might go about trying to control her (real!!) symptoms in the future. Does she represent everyone? No. Might she represent a significant subset of those who identify as having long Covid? Perhaps.

SF Chronicle said:
“But nothing went away entirely,” said Hayden, 57. “I’m not cured.”

I just want to be very clear about this: You are saying that the explanation for every single person who has experienced sustained remission with any intervention that failed a double-blinded trial (so basically all of them), or with mind-body therapies...all of these, because placebos don't work and neither do interventions that fail in trials...all of these people are experiencing coincidental-with-treatment spontaneous long-lasting natural remissions? All of them? So many long-lasting natural coincidental remissions, in all these case control trials, in the placebo arm of blinded trials, in all these anecdotes, but that's what they must be, because no therapy has worked in a blinded trial and placebos don't work either? I mean, this might be the beating heart of our disagreement right here. To me, that position is outlandish. I think the more likely explanation is that at least a subset of people have symptoms that respond well, long-term, to something that was happening with the intervention that sparked their remission/recovery. If we can identify them, then we've got a subset who will respond well to an intervention that exists already. And that is medical progress.

Yes, we do need to understand why people report recovery in this fashion. Let's have the objective data for a start.

Let's say that ME/CFS works something like this: there is a purely biological process that leads to significantly reduced functional capacity. Start with the idea of having "the 'flu" where you're laid up in bed or on the couch for 2-3 days and then nearly everyone simply recovers. Everyone already has experience of this. However for some people this condition could persist for months, even relapsing-remitting, but ultimately fully resolves. This might be like EBV/mono/glandular fever. But then there is another form where not only does the reduced functional capacity continue for months or years, it comes with another feature: over-doing it leads to a worsening and constellation of hideous and intolerable symptoms that might persist for a short time or even permanently. But even then some people do still spontaneously recover back to full health.

Nearly everyone experiencing this learns pretty quickly that they now have to keep the brakes on to avoid this deterioration. That includes Olympic athletes and professional tennis players. Paul Garner very clearly described the fear and panic from the symptoms he was experiencing, and they weren't even that bad (relatively speaking), even as he was already recovering and shortly off scuba-diving.

Now here's the speculative kicker. What if it were possible for this disease process to later partially resolve, such that the long-term deteriorations and deleterious feedback loops associated with PEM were no longer guaranteed, but you still had the baseline of reduced functional capacity. So now if you did try to slowly increase exertion things would actually improve (as they did when you were healthy), but, you've spent the last 10 years experiencing the opposite of that and you've learnt from bitter experience. Along comes somebody who convinces you that you're actually fine, the symptoms "while very real" are just the "brain misfiring its alarms". Trust me I know — it's Modern Neuroscience™. You believe them. One of two things happens: you're now fairly rapidly returning to normal health and functional capacity and "thank god" you're putting this behind you; or you deteriorate to a new level of suffering. You can listen to patients in the first group who loudly proclaim this amazing cure, but you also need to listen to the second group who are less able to loudly proclaim the harm. (It's all through this thread though.)

The problem is there's no way of knowing which group someone's in. It's not determined or determinable by psychology, it's determined by their biological status. But we don't know the mechanisms and we don't have the tools to interrogate. If there was a drug that could cure lupus in 10%, but it led to significant worsening or even death in the other 90%, would it be licensed if there was no eg genetic test to subtype for safety? Doubt it.

So the point is we don't need any research into how to persuade people they're now fine to resume normal life (with just this or that perfect amount of CBT and exercise therapy). We don't need any more psychological research at all. We already know how to persuade people, there's an entire global advertising industry built on it, not to mention multiple religions.

We need the biological research to understand the mechanism. For the small percentage that we already know spontaneously recover, a clinical test could then simply tell them "green light, you're now out of it" - much cheaper than hordes of therapists. And for the majority who don't spontaneously recover (beyond say two years), they now have a much better chance at an actual targeted mechanistic cure.

While the focus remains on psychological interventions, married to exercise therapies and interminable numbers of poor quality BPS studies, all reporting "promising", funding for biological studies remains severely constrained at the governmental level, and that chance is denied. And while that continues, families continue to be wrecked.
 
Noting genetic risk, two years after me my niece, now in her early 30s, developed LC after her third/fourth mild Covid infection. The previous infections had resolved without issue. She's a lawyer and was a gym and dance instructor and has been able to do none of those things in the subsequent three years.
This is referring to me and it is accurate, if understated. I am mostly housebound and unable to work. 3 years in, I do go out each week but often to my detriment - often taking hours and sometimes multiple days to recover. "Exercising through it" would be insane - it would (and has) lead me to an increase of symptoms/bedbound/pain, fatigue, PEM and misery, opnly recoverable through long and boring rest. Before this, I was the fittest I had ever been in my life, teaching gym and dance classes up to 8 times a week ontop of a demanding 60+ hour work week. I ran everywhere and felt I had endless energy. LC took all that was my life. I remain very positive, I feel certain that I will recover one day and if not, I have found new ways to engage my time safely within the confines of this illness (hooray for knitting and books and movies! and my wonderful uncle teaching me to vibe code :) ).
 
Despite this disease, I remain one of the most optimistic and relaxed people you might meet. I am still a valued and useful working member of our hospital's team, even if I haven't set foot in that hospital in five years.

What brain retraining could I possibly undergo?
Also on this point - fully attest to this based on a thirty year uncle/neice relationship. To use the example of driving a car, I have never seen him be remotely bothered by central city traffic, he has no need to over take because he has nothing to prove. @SNT Gatchaman is elite level chill and 100% goals.
 
@Learningandlistening
Read the Magenta trial, as just one example where significant numbers of children got sicker and one was suicidal as a result of flexible GET.
Also it might help if you got some background on Esther Crawley who ran the trial, and had been 'treating' children for years with GET. She used to say that the 'kids loved GET'. She was the one who also ran the Lightning Process trial claimed as a success. Her TEDx talk is a masterclass in how to sell the BPS approach and discredit the 'bad militant ME activists' who question the ethics of such research on children. When questioned about it she said "“If the Lightning Process is dangerous, as they say, we need to find out." https://s4me.info/threads/smile-trial-data-to-be-released.8548/post-150100

eta: her TEDx talk https://pwme.uk/EC/Crawley TEDx.mp4
 
Last edited:
'Long Covid Advocacy' on Twitter (6/6/2026 at 2.50)






Long Covid Advocacy:

'This explains A LOT. Levinovitz's new book is called 'Demons by another name: Biology, belief & stories make us sick.'It is clear that brain retaining fits the argument that he is making: that what was deemed as demons are still making us sick & the mind can miracle cure 1/8'


'Demons (now termed belief, fear, psych) are the excluded part & millions can't heal themselves from pain, fatigue & chronic conditions because of this. If we let magic, charisma & belief in we will be healed. /2'


'This is where brain retraining comes in. It conveniently fits the narrative Levinovitz is building for his book.Brain retraining IS the belief that heals, the new magic spell.The problem is he's forcing a whole community into this premise & people are getting hurt. /3'


'In the Wired article it was clear Levinovitz wasn't interested in the science. This is because he states we are emerging from a "science fever dream". That science CAN'T answer these illnesses - only the power of language, culture & belief. Enter brain retraining. /4'


'BUT he states this is taboo to believe this. It explains why Alan is so recalcitrant & the religious narrative framing. He has A LOT invested in this world view & Long Covid & brain training is a way to make his point. He's not interested in us as people. /5'


'The problem is we aren't just an academic fantasy. The community's aim is to advocate for a deeper scientific view, to find the pathology & treatment that reliably works for the majority. This is counter to Alan who wants magic, blessings, curses & belief. /6'


'Our concern is were people interviewed not just for the article, but for the book without understanding the context?As this would have changed everything. It gave him access to use a community without full understanding. /7'


'Full video. "You can be blessed & you can be cursed"
No one is cursed Alan - there is a pandemic, people caught a virus & there is no cure. We need a reliable treatment that works for the majority. /8'


' ... This type of world view can be very seductive to academics interested in religion, anthropology. The problem is he's moving into popular culture that doesn't have the academic safeguards. It's allowing him free reign. The reality of his mindset is unfortunately stronger than the reality of Long Covid.'





Youtube - 'Can Words Really Heal You? Dr. Alan Levinovitz on the Curious by Nature Podcast'




'Is finding the name of your affliction like finding the name of #rumpelstiltskin? Dr. Alan Levinovitz, Professor of Religion and Philosophy at #jamesmadisonuniversity #calls it The Rumpelstiltskin Effect, the idea that naming your illness can take away some of its power. We explored how words and stories can shape not just how we understand disease, but how we actually experience it.'


Listen to Curious by NatureSpotify: https://tinyurl.com/5es7tnv7

https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbVU4cVpDb3l5bG9ad0ZsNzFNWlA5a0haRVkxQXxBQ3Jtc0trazR1V2g1aTRQWDltLUVrWWtiT0hNYk9oU3JlTHJZLWpyTWZEY2lsNEwxaS1lUmZvUnI3R1dmQmNaQTN0bnlNNTNCcksxMTVuNzdmcElWcXNmbnhFN3hULTB6VlppNzlVSlRidjhHT0ZrV2xQbm03bw&q=https://tinyurl.com/5es7tnv7&v=ZmQOn2uhyXo

Apple Podcast: https://tinyurl.com/f872m4fc


.
 
Last edited:
the ethics of such research on children
Anyone else feeling queasy?

As a psychology graduate myself and former member of the British Psychological Society (BPS) I strongly suspect there are ethics and guidance against research on children.

“If the Lightning Process is dangerous, as they say, we need to find out."
Surely the approach should be “If the this has even the potential to be as dangerous as people suggest, we need to approach with extreme caution and definitely not try it out on children who are not legally able to consent themselves"?

Here is the BPS Code of Human Research Ethics;


"Research cannot cause physical or psychological harm. Researchers must anticipate risks, and have established procedures to handle and report disclosures of abuse or significant harm"

Which raises questions around lack of long term follow up for research studies.
 
Surely the approach should be “If the this has even the potential to be as dangerous as people suggest, we need to approach with extreme caution and definitely not try it out on children who are not legally able to consent themselves"?
This whole debate actually completely sidesteps what matters here. It's entirely equivalent to saying that there is nothing wrong with solely using homeopathy to treat a cancer because water is harmless, even more so in the small amounts delivered as "homeopathic treatment" (to take into account the only caveat of water toxicity, if one wants to be overly pedantic about it).

Except of course in the case of psychobehavioral it would actually be about consuming excessive quantities of expensive shaken water, to the point of water toxicity, but even the basic argument is entirely fallacious and there is no need to go beyond that. The idea of the treatment itself being harmless is simply not a serious argument. This is what makes alternative medicine so potentially dangerous. Steve Jobs is a world famous example of this, but this ideology is about forcing those beliefs onto the entire world population. It's so appallingly wrong that it sits on the margins of humanity's worst horrors.

There are differences in that untreated cancers lead to death, while overall prognostic for ME/CFS are not as dire, but the ethical issues remain the same: a form of treatment being benign itself has zero bearing on its validity, even when there are no effective treatments (i.e. we can say the same about Alzheimer's). Because the entire psychobehavioral ideology is mutually incompatible with a medical model and all the research and care that should follow it. In pursuing this model the entire point is in fact to deny real, scientific health care. Which is of course always dishonourably denied, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what is written down, in plain language, by everyone involved in its production.
 
Anyone else feeling queasy?

As a psychology graduate myself and former member of the British Psychological Society (BPS) I strongly suspect there are ethics and guidance against research on children.


Surely the approach should be “If the this has even the potential to be as dangerous as people suggest, we need to approach with extreme caution and definitely not try it out on children who are not legally able to consent themselves"?

Here is the BPS Code of Human Research Ethics;


"Research cannot cause physical or psychological harm. Researchers must anticipate risks, and have established procedures to handle and report disclosures of abuse or significant harm"

Which raises questions around lack of long term follow up for research studies.


@JellyBabyKid - There was massive and extended opposition to the Smile (Lightning Process) Trial at the time on ethical grounds. Also questioning if the Research Ethics Committee could possibly be informed enough about how NLP operates to make any judgement of safety.

Someone wrote to the National Research Ethics Committee, which arranged for letters of concern (many with evidence) to be forwarded to the Local Research Ethics Committee.

Dr Esther Crawley countered that:
1/ ME in children is different to ME in adults, therefore a separate study on children was justified.

2/ And, Esther Crawley - "this research had the full support of children and families, indeed the impetus for starting it came from children and families and had the support of AYME."

See Esther Crawley's statements from the Minutes of the Research Ethics Committee included in the ME Association report below.




Later 'John the Jack' examined the recruitment of child patients for the Smile Trial, breaking down the numbers, and demonstrated that only a relatively small number ended up actually participating in the Lightning Process study, rather begging the question that the "clamouring" from parents and child patients (Esther Crawley's words) was the justification for doing the study.


This ME Association piece gives a very good overview, includes an Extract of Minutes from South West 2 REC [Research Ethics Committee] meeting held on 2 December 2010, when the Research Ethics Committee questioned Dr Esther Crawley:



The numbers recruited to the Smile Trial v the numbers who participated. The numbers don't add up.


.
 
Last edited:
There was massive and extended opposition to the Smile (Lightning Process) Trial at the time on ethical grounds.
Thank you, that's good to know.
ME in children is different to ME in adults, therefor a seperate study on children was justified
This, less so. What evidence was this based on?

I know that there children do recover more frequently than adults, but also tend to relapse in adulthood so... still a bad idea?
 
I know that there children do recover more frequently than adults, but also tend to relapse in adulthood so... still a bad idea?

The ethical situation at the time was very straightforward from my perspective as a long term ethics committee participant. A trial on children without a good quality trial having been done in adults first was unethical. The only reason why it might not have been is if there was some compelling reason for thinking that children would respond and not adults. There was no such evidence.
 
'Long Covid Advocacy' on Twitter (6/6/2026 at 2.50)






Long Covid Advocacy:

'This explains A LOT. Levinovitz's new book is called 'Demons by another name: Biology, belief & stories make us sick.'It is clear that brain retaining fits the argument that he is making: that what was deemed as demons are still making us sick & the mind can miracle cure 1/8'


'Demons (now termed belief, fear, psych) are the excluded part & millions can't heal themselves from pain, fatigue & chronic conditions because of this. If we let magic, charisma & belief in we will be healed. /2'


'This is where brain retraining comes in. It conveniently fits the narrative Levinovitz is building for his book.Brain retraining IS the belief that heals, the new magic spell.The problem is he's forcing a whole community into this premise & people are getting hurt. /3'


'In the Wired article it was clear Levinovitz wasn't interested in the science. This is because he states we are emerging from a "science fever dream". That science CAN'T answer these illnesses - only the power of language, culture & belief. Enter brain retraining. /4'


'BUT he states this is taboo to believe this. It explains why Alan is so recalcitrant & the religious narrative framing. He has A LOT invested in this world view & Long Covid & brain training is a way to make his point. He's not interested in us as people. /5'


'The problem is we aren't just an academic fantasy. The community's aim is to advocate for a deeper scientific view, to find the pathology & treatment that reliably works for the majority. This is counter to Alan who wants magic, blessings, curses & belief. /6'


'Our concern is were people interviewed not just for the article, but for the book without understanding the context?As this would have changed everything. It gave him access to use a community without full understanding. /7'


'Full video. "You can be blessed & you can be cursed"
No one is cursed Alan - there is a pandemic, people caught a virus & there is no cure. We need a reliable treatment that works for the majority. /8'


' ... This type of world view can be very seductive to academics interested in religion, anthropology. The problem is he's moving into popular culture that doesn't have the academic safeguards. It's allowing him free reign. The reality of his mindset is unfortunately stronger than the reality of Long Covid.'





Youtube - 'Can Words Really Heal You? Dr. Alan Levinovitz on the Curious by Nature Podcast'




'Is finding the name of your affliction like finding the name of #rumpelstiltskin? Dr. Alan Levinovitz, Professor of Religion and Philosophy at #jamesmadisonuniversity #calls it The Rumpelstiltskin Effect, the idea that naming your illness can take away some of its power. We explored how words and stories can shape not just how we understand disease, but how we actually experience it.'


Listen to Curious by NatureSpotify: https://tinyurl.com/5es7tnv7

https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbVU4cVpDb3l5bG9ad0ZsNzFNWlA5a0haRVkxQXxBQ3Jtc0trazR1V2g1aTRQWDltLUVrWWtiT0hNYk9oU3JlTHJZLWpyTWZEY2lsNEwxaS1lUmZvUnI3R1dmQmNaQTN0bnlNNTNCcksxMTVuNzdmcElWcXNmbnhFN3hULTB6VlppNzlVSlRidjhHT0ZrV2xQbm03bw&q=https://tinyurl.com/5es7tnv7&v=ZmQOn2uhyXo

Apple Podcast: https://tinyurl.com/f872m4fc


.

"Does naming your illness can take away some of its power?"

Surely it's more like finding the right map and heading in the right direction, instead of repeatedly driving down a dead end street, which is what happens when you have the wrong diagnosis? It doesn't solve the problem but it points you in the right direction as to what might help, or at least stop making it worse, usually?
 
Looks like Alan Levinovitz could be a second Elaine Showalter..... Maybe that's his objective.

Showalter was/is the Queen of 'Stories/Narratives/The Media make us sick' in her disgraceful 1997 book
'Hystories - Hysterical Epidemics and Modern Culture'.

Showalter bracketed Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS with Alien Abduction. The Press went berserk.
Media Pundits yelled "Yes! She is Sooo Right, and Sooo Brave and Compassionate!".

"Elaine Showalter says ..." .... became London Literati Dinner Party Gossip
.
.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom