Action CIND Webinar: "Why Working out Doesn’t Work" by Workwell Foundation

spinoza577 · Jan 9, 2020

Ravn said: ↑

... They have non-physical PEM triggers on the slide, which is good. What I don't understand is if they also view non-physical triggers in terms of anaerobic thresholds being passed, e.g. brain cells working so hard that their broken aerobic system can't deal with it (that's if brain cells even have such a system?)? Or do they assume a different mechanism for non-physical triggers but don't go into it because that's not their specialty?

Should the immediate symptoms listed - fatigue, shortness of breath, dizziness, nausea - be considered part of PEM?
...
Another slide at 39:25 comparing healthy, ME baseline, ME PEM, and deconditioned is good. I still wonder if certain people who shall remain nameless would try to twist it to say that we're not only deconditioned but extremely deconditioned? They'd have to explain the difference between baseline and PEM: can we really get that much more deconditioned overnight? - but they'd probably just ignore that little problem of logic.
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I think they don´t manage to grasp the nature of PEM.

It is rather a pattern of occurence (of symptoms), not a pattern of concrete symptoms.

The CCC may serve a confusion, as they give an alternative to PEM called PEF. "Malaise" obviously referres to symptoms felt in the body, whereas "Fatique" is obviously suggested to describe mental disabilities. This might be not too stupid, but key is obviously that these both areas of symptoms occur in an exaggerated manner and possibly delayed.

Looking at this I find it a bit bold to talk about anaerobic threshhold as an explanation. Better would be to ask in which place (in the body) these two areas are connected.

TiredSam · Jan 9, 2020

ahimsa said: ↑

I can go for a pretty long time without feeling any overexertion from cognitive tasks IF it is a solitary task with no need to communicate in any way. For example, reading a book, or doing crossword puzzles, usually does not cause payback. And back when I was still struggling to work it did not seem like the coding part of my job was any harder than before. The problem was all the symptoms from ME and Orthostatic Intolerance plus the post-exertional crashes after trying to work a full day.

But if I have to communicate (talk on the phone, talk in person - especially explaining or answering questions, typing emails) then it is more likely to cause overexertion.
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Yep, when I'm symptomatic, anything to do with communication / language is the first thing to go, but I can still play chess or read. When that goes, I can still watch Southpark. If that goes, it's time to lie down and close my eyes.

Medfeb · Jan 9, 2020

TiredSam said: ↑

I only have symptoms from physical overexertion. One of my symptoms is brain fog, cognitive issues like being unable to concentrate, remember, find words, follow a conversation etc. But this only happens as a result of physical overexertion.

I can play chess for hours without symptoms, or read, or hold a 3-hour conversation (I've just been teaching 1-2-1 for 3 hours this afternoon). I'm fairly tired and on the edge of experiencing symptoms now, but that's from the effort of having to sit up straight in a chair for 3 hours.
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@TiredSam and @ahimsa - thanks for replying. This is really helpful.

NelliePledge · Jan 10, 2020

@ahimsa. Yes physical exertion definitely drains my energy quickest , conversation especially in social groups is next possibly contributed to by sitting around a table or whatever for a few hours whereas forum reading/posting or writing emails are still possible even when I’m fairly low on energy. But that’s stuff I can do with my feet up so again orthostatic intolerance could be a factor.

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Action CIND Webinar: "Why Working out Doesn’t Work" by Workwell Foundation

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