Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

hibiscuswahine said:
You can apply in NZ for a vaccine exemption for the Pfizer vaccine mandate for 6 months, it particularly mentions ME/CFS. https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work...emptions-and-exceptions-mandatory-vaccination. There are strict criteria but they advise not to have the second dose if in relapse.
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I don't understand the point of this in relation to pwME.

As far as I can make out from the document there's going to be a temporary medical exemption for the second dose if you've had a major bad reaction to the first, the idea being to give you time to recover from that bad reaction.

But this temporary exemption appears to only be aimed at people working in a job covered by the vaccine mandate. But most people with ME don't work in the first place and those who do and who had a major worsening from their first vaccine are unlikely to be able to work until they've recovered from that relapse. At which point they're supposed to have their second vaccine (possibly a different type from their first). So who is this supposed to apply to? What am I missing?

The relevant sections for a pwME seem to be:
Exemptions should be for a specified time, reflecting, for example, recovery from clinical conditions or the availability of alternate vaccines.
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1B. Serious Adverse Event to previous dose


Serious adverse event attributed to a previous dose of the same COVID-19 vaccine with no other cause identified. An adverse event is considered serious for the purposes of these criteria if it:
▪ Requires in-patient hospitalisation or prolongation of existing hospitalisation OR results in persistent or significant disability/incapacity.
AND
▪ Has been reported to CARM.
AND
Has been determined following review by, and/or on the opinion of, a relevant medical specialist to be associated with a risk of recurrence of the serious adverse event if another dose of the same vaccine is given.

Examples of serious AEFIs may include but are not limited to a medically significant illness (eg, immune thrombocytopenia purpura (ITP), myocarditis, potentially life-threatening events (eg, anaphylaxis), severe ME/CFS, or persistent or significant disability (eg, Guillain-Barré Syndrome). These reactions do not include common expected local or systemic reactions known to occur within the first few days after vaccination.
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Other adverse events that have been reported to the Centre for Adverse Reactions Monitoring (CARM), the Immunisation Advisory Centre (IMAC), or have been observed internationally include shingles, appendicitis, lymphadenopathy with or without fever, exacerbation of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), regional pain syndrome, and neurological events with localised arm pain. These events may or may not be related to the vaccine and it is generally advised to defer the second dose until the symptoms have fully resolved.
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hibiscuswahine said:
They may be doing a trial of fractionated doses on pwME, they have asked for expressions of interest within our community via ANZMES.
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Has there been any testing of fractionated vaccination anywhere else for people with potentially 'reactive' immune systems?

If this can achieve good protection with less severe side effects surely that would help convince more people to get vaccinated (I mean in general, not just pwME)?

Additionally there are the likes of me who very unexpectedly felt better after their vaccines (so much for the nocebo effect!). I'd love to try and see if having my booster as 3 small doses instead of 1 standard dose would make me feel better 3x3 weeks instead of 1x3 weeks.
 
Ravn said:
I don't understand the point of this in relation to pwME.

Yes, strict criteria. I don’t fulfill the criteria but had a reaction while in relapse, with my first dose. I am housebound and only summon up the energy to leave my home to go to medical appointments, I am also well versed on protection measures, high quality masks, social distancing etc having lived in a hotspot in Europe during the entire pandemic until a few months ago and have kept up with the relevant covid research so know the risks.

Actually I think it might be partly medicolegal, they have had reports from our community of serious relapse (and reports from overseas) and our medical and scientific experts have expressed concern and surveyed us and many of us have discussed our individual risks with our GP’s (I did) and that will be getting back to the Immmunisation Scientific panel and they realise they have to make some concession or health advice for us as a vulnerable population and come up with a solution over the next six months (a trial of fractionated doses, which could ease the effect of the second dose side effects - the CDC is running one on healthy people to see their immune response to smaller doses) or leave it up to us to decide, at our own risk basically. If they knowingly give us a vaccine that causes harm (i.e. health deterioration) that would give us an opportunity to seek compensation from ACC and all those legal costs. They also don’t want to knowingly harm us which is good and caring. Just my thoughts.
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Ravn said:
Has there been any testing of fractionated vaccination anywhere else for people with potentially 'reactive' immune systems?

Not that I am aware of, but this fractionated dose trial of us, if it actually ever comes about, they may not do it…could be a potential way to prevent relapse but has to be weighed up with the risk of getting covid, which is not likely to be pleasant, may worsen one’s ME and maybe fatal.
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Latest update re availability of boosters to under 50s in England:

5 minutes ago (note the NHS booking site has not yet been updated) to reflect the lowering of eligibility age.)


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55045639

All over 40s in the UK will be offered a booster dose of Covid vaccine, and 16 and 17-year-olds are to be given a second jab.

The announcement has been made by the government's advisers, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI).

What are the new vaccine guidelines?

Anyone aged 40 or over can now have a booster vaccine, once six months have passed since their second jab.

Anyone aged 16 or 17 can now have a second jab, as long as it is 12 weeks since their first.

etc.
 
I'm in Scotland. I've an appointment for my booster next week. From the letter and from older friends who have already had theirs, I understand they are doing flu and Covid boosters at the same time.

I find this a worry as how can adverse reaction be monitored if you don't know which vaccine caused it?

I'm planning to only accept the Covid booster, as I have don't have contact with many people.
 
Ebb Tide said:
I'm in Scotland. I've an appointment for my booster next week. From the letter and from older friends who have already had theirs, I understand they are doing flu and Covid boosters at the same time.

I find this a worry as how can adverse reaction be monitored if you don't know which vaccine caused it?

I'm planning to only accept the Covid booster, as I have don't have contact with many people.
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I don't have ME. I had 2 x AstraZeneca and have a booster (Pfizer or Moderna) booked for next week.

I've never bothered with a flu vaccine in previous years, but decided to have one this year. I felt rough for one day after the initial AZ, but less so after the second dose. I also felt rough for a day after the flu jab. We don't have the option, locally, to have both the flu jab and the booster administered at the same time, but if we had, I would have chosen to have had them at least a week or two apart.

My adult son with ME (22.5 yrs since onset) is of the age group that were only offered Pfizer. Apart from a slightly sore arm, exacerbation of his usual 24/7 ME related headache for a day or so and a gland in his neck coming up, he didn't suffer notable side effects. Boosters are now being offered to over 40s, so his age group (35) may be next in line for being offered a booster. I don't know what booster will be offered to his age group (ie those who have already had 2 x Pfizer). If it's another Pfizer, he may accept a booster but if it's a single dose of AZ, he's not sure yet whether he'll have it, as he rarely comes into contact with other people apart from his parents and we will, ourselves, have been triple dosed by then.
 
Dx Revision Watch said:
I don't know what booster will be offered to his age group (ie those who have already had 2 x Pfizer).
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obviously cant be sure, but i was told in Boots pharmacy when i had my flu jab, that all boosters for everyone are pfizer. It was unclear if she meant all *their* boosters were going to be pfizer, but i think it meant nationally as i know loads of people, well lol, about 4 or 5, mainly health care workers or extremely vulnerable, who had 2x pfizer early in the year before AZ was 'in stock' & being given, and they have all already had their boosters a few wks ago, and all of them were given pfizer again.

I queried it because i'd though the science indicated better protection from a mix & match situation, but i guess they must have a good reason for doing it this way. I dont know anyone who has had AZ as their booster
 
Ebb Tide said:
I find this a worry as how can adverse reaction be monitored if you don't know which vaccine caused it?
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I'm wondering if which vaccine causes an adverse reaction even matters? I had several vaccines during my ME viral onset 30 years ago and I think it was a mistake to have them all during that time period.

I've never had a flu shot, and I'm only getting the booster in March b/c I don't have much contact with many people either.

I suspect it was the second Hep B jab that brought my stamina even lower.
 
JemPD said:
obviously cant be sure, but i was told in Boots pharmacy when i had my flu jab, that all boosters for everyone are pfizer. It was unclear if she meant all *their* boosters were going to be pfizer, but i think it meant nationally as i know loads of people, well lol, about 4 or 5, mainly health care workers or extremely vulnerable, who had 2x pfizer early in the year before AZ was 'in stock' & being given, and they have all already had their boosters a few wks ago, and all of them were given pfizer again.

I queried it because i'd though the science indicated better protection from a mix & match situation, but i guess they must have a good reason for doing it this way. I dont know anyone who has had AZ as their booster
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Thanks JemPD.
 
JemPD said:
obviously cant be sure, but i was told in Boots pharmacy when i had my flu jab, that all boosters for everyone are pfizer. It was unclear if she meant all *their* boosters were going to be pfizer, but i think it meant nationally as i know loads of people, well lol, about 4 or 5, mainly health care workers or extremely vulnerable, who had 2x pfizer early in the year before AZ was 'in stock' & being given, and they have all already had their boosters a few wks ago, and all of them were given pfizer again.

I queried it because i'd though the science indicated better protection from a mix & match situation, but i guess they must have a good reason for doing it this way. I dont know anyone who has had AZ as their booster
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My daughter was given Moderna for her booster and Pfizer for her original jabs.
 
Today, from the NHS booking site for boosters:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...ter-dose-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine/

(...)

All people aged 40 to 49 years old who have not previously been eligible will soon be able to book an appointment for a booster dose using this service.

We will update this site with more information when these appointments are available to book. We expect this to be from Monday 22 November 2021.
 
hibiscuswahine said:
You can apply in NZ for a vaccine exemption for the Pfizer vaccine mandate for 6 months, it particularly mentions ME/CFS. https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work...emptions-and-exceptions-mandatory-vaccination. There are strict criteria but they advise not to have the second dose if in relapse. They may be doing a trial of fractionated doses on pwME, they have asked for expressions of interest within our community via ANZMES.
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One thing I find frustrating is there is evidence (mechanistically and epidemilogically) of recurrence of GBS due to the Pfizer vaccine (and AZ and J&J have been shown to cause excess cases of GBS in recent studies), yet they only consider GBS due to a dose of the COVID vaccine as an exemption. It is the same story in Australia.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/2783708
 
Guardian article 21st November 2021

By Anonymous who is identified as an NHS respiratory consultant.

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin
Most of the resources the NHS is devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had their jab
In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated. The man in his 20s who had always watched what he ate, worked out in the gym, was too healthy to ever catch Covid badly. The 48-year-old who never got round to making the appointment.

The person in their 50s whose friend had side-effects. The woman who wanted to wait for more evidence. The young pregnant lady worried about the effect on her baby.

The 60-year-old, brought to hospital with oxygen saturations of 70% by the ambulance that he initially called for his partner, who had died by the time it arrived; both believed that the drug companies bribed the government to get the vaccine approved.

All severely ill with Covid. All unvaccinated and previously healthy. All completely avoidable.

Of course, there are people who have their vaccinations but still get sick. These people may be elderly or frail, or have underlying health problems. Those with illnesses affecting the immune system, particularly patients who have had chemotherapy for blood cancers, are especially vulnerable. Some unlucky healthy people will also end up on our general wards with Covid after being vaccinated, usually needing a modest amount of oxygen for a few days.

But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice.
[...] more at link
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
 
MeSci said:
"I have never heard a reason not to take the vaccine that I have agreed with."

Surely there are several groups of people who should avoid vaccinations?
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I found this whole piece (and the fact that it was published) disturbing, and that line stood out to me as well. They also say:

"I have many colleagues who have felt awful after vaccination and a few who had to take a day or two off work. However, I have not heard of any who have been hospitalised with Covid afterwards or who have had severe side-effects."

So, because none of their colleagues had "severe side-effects", it's an irrelevant consideration for everyone?
 
I took the point in the article to be that among the young and middle aged healthy population, he hasn't seen anyone hospitalised because of the vaccine, but the ICU of his hospital is full of people from that same healthy population who haven't been vaccinated.

I think it's addressed to healthy people with no specific factors in their medical history that might make vaccination unadvisable. He's talking from the perspective of a respiratory consultant caring for people who have chosen not to be vaccinated for reasons like they think they are too healthy to bother, covid won't hurt them.

It's not intended to be a scientific study of the comparative effects of vaccination and disease on the whole population, it's a plea to health people to get vaccinated.
 
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