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Covid-19 vaccines and vaccinations

Discussion in 'Epidemics (including Covid-19)' started by hinterland, Dec 3, 2020.

  1. hinterland

    hinterland Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The Pfizer press release reports that protection is achieved 28 days after initiation of the first dose of vaccine. Whereas you can develop covid within a few days of exposure, so the virus wins that race.

    https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...d-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against
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    Some posts from the start of this thread have been moved to a separate thread in the members area.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2021
  2. strategist

    strategist Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Is it dangerous for people with ME to provoke immune reactions?
     
  3. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm not keen on any vaccinations since getting ME, which I am fairly sure in my case is autoimmune.
     
  4. Frankie

    Frankie Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    My concern is also about a possible abnormal immune response to the vaccine. It appears that there are two different types of vaccine. Which is less likely to provoke an abnormal immune reaction? Would the Oxford first half dose be the safest way to go?
     
  5. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    When we had our flu vaccinations this year it was very well planned to prevent infections. Medical personnel have been using anticovid measures for months now, it is their daily reality. Whether that will stand a mass rollout I don't know.

    Many people with ME get the flu jab and others with no problem. Just thinking it over with no expertise, this is RNA which matches covid so it could only cause autoimmunity if the immune system being stimulated causes it. But having the infection will stimulate the immune system even more so it is worth getting vaccinated if it will prevent the infection.

    Similarly, if you can get autoimmunity because the covid RNA can be mistaken for a human bit of RNA then an infection would be worse.

    The most likely way it would make ME worse is by using too much of our energy stimulating the immune system in response but then again a proper infection would be worse.

    I think it will be like flu, there will ne no definitive answer for people with ME and it will be an individual choice.

    Even if one vaccine would be better for us than another there is very little chance the medical world will think it important enough to let us choose since they are convinced we just need to exercise more.
     
  6. Peter Trewhitt

    Peter Trewhitt Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sorry a bit of a digression, but in relation to vaccines and ME, we don’t have systematic data but my subjective impression from various forums is:

    - many people with ME have no adverse response to any vaccine, possibly this is the majority, at least more than half people self reporting on forums
    - the majority of people with ME that have adverse reactions to vaccines do not have an adverse response to all vaccines and the response they do have is transient, from a few days to a few weeks, and certainly much less than the impact of getting the virus being vaccinated against
    - some people with ME may have severe negative reaction to some or all vaccines, though we do not know if it is the active ingredient(s) or the medium for the active ingredient (Sorry struggling to remember the correct terms). This may be a long lasting or even permanent worsening of symptoms. However these are very much in the minority.

    The problem is knowing in advance which group an individual falls into.
     
  7. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm not anti-vaccine, but I will wait after watching "Vaccin, la guerre secrète" last night. They brought up the Dengue vaccine fiasco in the Philippines that brought criminal charges (reckless imprudence resulting in homicide) against a prominent pediatrician and medical researcher(Rose Capeding) who introduced Dengvaxia prematurely 2017.

    They also interviewed a women in a wheelchair who I believe had MS that said she will wait for all the 'numbers' and data first before getting vaccinated. She worked in the field of vaccinology and immunology medicine.
     
  8. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Peter Trewhitt

    I have another issue besides adverse effects which I made have had in my ME onset. The timing of the vaccines are moving too quickly for me as I wrote in my post above.
     
    Daisymay, MeSci and Peter Trewhitt like this.
  9. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Re: Dengvaxia vaccine

    "But controversy arose after Sanofi (French pharmaceutical firm) disclosed a year later that it could worsen symptoms for people not previously infected by the dengue virus."

    Who is to say it won't happen with the COVID vaccine?
     
    alktipping, Daisymay and MeSci like this.
  10. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm in my 70's and turned down a recent invitation to go to the GP practice for my annual flu vaccination. In the last few years my daughter and I, being housebound, had our flu vaccinations done at home, but, unsurprisingly they are not doing that this year at all. It was go to the surgery or nothing.

    The reason I turned it down, apart from the likely PEM from the exertion, was that I would have to find someone to take me, and travelling in their car would be a potential risk of catching Covid, or flu. I wasnt so worried about in the GP clinic, as I gather they are pretty well organised with rapid throughput and PPE. Since we are isolating, I reckon the journey is too high a risk to be worth it.

    But I think if I'm offered the Covid vaccine I would take the risk of catching something on the way there. Though I might wait to see if they are planning ever to reach the stage of doing home visits, even if I have to pay for someone to do it. The only alternative is to isolate for the rest of our lives, which doesn't appeal.
     
  11. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Trish you will have to go back for the second jab one month later.

    I'm going to wait, if they offer to do house calls later I will consider it. I'm in no rush.
     
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  12. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    I realise that.
     
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  13. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The UK is the first to roll them out. I'm still unsure when Canada will start. We don't have facilities in Canada to produce vaccines so we are behind in the line-up.
     
  14. Leila

    Leila Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have no knowledge about vaccines, could it be dangerous to take if already having had SarsCov2?

    I vaguely remember some discussion about a 2nd infection in some viruses being dangerous/worse than the 1st one.

    I know that a vaccine isn't the same as an infection but it causes a similiar immune response, doesn't it?
     
  15. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Or as in the Dengvaxia vaccine, it could worsen symptoms for people not previously infected by dengue.

    We just don't know yet.
     
    MeSci, Daisymay and Leila like this.
  16. Fizzlou

    Fizzlou Established Member

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    With the poor understanding of immune effects with ME my view has been to avoid vaccinations. I don't see too many people. My healthy early 60's husband was offered a free flu jab. I answered a questionnaire the other day on this, ticked the Neurological illness option and it wasn't sure that I should be offered a free flu jab.

    I haven't caught so much as a sniffle in over 10 years and had assumed my immune system was overactive. A positive so I thought, apart from the 'flare' up I experience from any exposure. That said Michael Van Elzakker suggests that not having an illness response doesn't mean you are immune. In fact you may not be producing the reaction that's meant to fight a virus. This not knowing for sure makes me cautious.

    The plan is that my husband will have the vaccines to protect me as he's the most likely vector to me and if infected he could give me a bigger initial viral load than anyone else. It's a risk him going to the surgery but it's just twice. It will give him more freedom and me more peace of mind.

    I'm curious to know if the pwME who have caught Covid 19 are the overimmune/underimmune self reporters or it didn't make a difference.
     
  17. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge Moderator Staff Member

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    Like @Mithriel i found the set up at my GP surgery for the flu vaccine very well thought out and if I’m invited back there for CV19 jabs I will definitely go. Luckily it is only a mile down the road so within my drive myself capability. I’m assuming all the staff involved in doing the jabs will be first in line for the vaccine
     
  18. Kitty

    Kitty Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm working on the assumption that by the time it's my turn, the Oxford/AZ vaccination will have been approved and that's what will be offered. It's much easier to handle and store, and could potentially be offered in venues such as sports centres rather than needing the sophisticated setup required by the Pfizer mRNA one. Whatever it is, I'll be there as soon as I'm invited.
     
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  19. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have zero knowledge in the field of immunology so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but I think I have read they still haven’t established - though they are hopeful it will - whether people who have the vaccine still could possibly transmit the virus if they are exposed to it?
     
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  20. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If a vaccine is deemed 90% effective say, what does that then mean for the other 10%? Within that group do they then have the same probability of serious harm / death as anyone else? i.e. Would it mean that vaccinated people would be 10x less likely to come to serious harm, assuming my 90% effectiveness figure?

    Or is it that the vaccinated-but-unprotected people, by implication, have different predispositions to the consequences of infection?
     

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